# Charles Colson Dead At 80 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 22, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558 "2012-04-22T03:57:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/41 "2012-04-23T22:04:18Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Except he didn’t stop doing horrible things. He didn’t do any more CREEPing as far as I know. I suppose he did continue to advocate antigay bigotry, so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/42 "2012-04-23T22:22:18Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I understand that after a life characterized by many instances of sustained lies to manipulate others, he later claimed to have converted to good (in circumstances where it would manipulate others to his advantage.) What I don’t understand is why _anyone_ would be gullible enough to think that was genuine. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I guess it depends on whether Colson was ashamed (if he was) of breaking the law, or ashamed of doing wrong in a more fundamental _malum in se_ sense. I doubt he ever felt the latter. A long time ago I read his biographical account _Born Again_. I don’t remember much about it, but I think he did admit to guilt (moral as well as legal) and wrongdoing. I don’t really doubt that his acceptance of Christianity (of a conservative/evangelical flavor) was genuine, and at the time I’m not sure he had much to gain by publically doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/43 "2012-04-23T22:34:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He didn’t do any more CREEPing as far as I know. I suppose he did continue to advocate antigay bigotry, so there’s that. Check out the article that **Thudlow** linked above. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/44 "2012-04-24T14:12:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Check out the article that **Thudlow** linked above. OK, so there’s also that. I’m still wondering why **Qin Shi Huangdi** expects us to be sad. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/45 "2012-04-24T14:38:22Z")
Raps on **Qin** ’s door, “You home?” . ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/46 "2012-04-24T15:22:27Z")
Matthew 5:11-12 John 15:18-25 What made Colson great was that he could have fought the charges against him and gotten off with a lesser punishment. He chose to go to jail, rather than be dishonest. After he got out of jail, he had many rich and powerful friends who could have given him lucrative employment but he chose instead to open a prison ministry to give hope to some of the lowest members of our society. This despite the fact that Nixon was elected as a law and order president and the mainstream view of prisoners was that they were scum who were ruining our country and that prisons were too easy and sentences were too short. Most of the prisoners he helped were felons who had their voting rights stripped and could not be of any service to a political party. Prisoners who go participate in Prison Fellowship ministries are much less likely than average to reoffend and hurt other people. Through self sacrificial service to the lowly he made our society a better place. Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/47 "2012-04-24T15:46:16Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What made Colson great was that he could have fought the charges against him and gotten off with a lesser punishment. He chose to go to jail, rather than be dishonest. He did get off with a lesser punishment. This is not accurate with regard to Colson and it’s not an accurate description of what happens when you “fight the charges.” When you plead not guilty, you may get no prison time at all if you’re acquitted on all charges, but you may be convicted on a bunch of charges and get more jail time. It’s a bigger risk. When you plead guilty like Colson did, you get a lighter sentence than you might’ve received if you were convicted after pleading not guilty. It’s dealmaking. Wikipedia says that Colson “found himself torn between his desire to be truthful and his desire to avoid conviction on charges of which he believed himself innocent. Following prayer and consultation with his fellowship group, Colson approached his lawyers and suggested a plea of guilty to a different criminal charge of which he did consider himself culpable.” So he plead guilty to stuff he thought he did but wouldn’t own up to other things, which seems to have been the pattern he followed later in life. As part of his plea, he was not charged with anything related to the actual Watergate burglary, only the Ellsberg job. He was sentenced to one to three years in prison and was released after seven months. I am not sure how much jail time he was facing if he’d been convicted of everything, but I am sure it was much more. In any case all of that hardly makes a person great. > [@](#): > > This despite the fact that Nixon was elected as a law and order president and the mainstream view of prisoners was that they were scum who were ruining our country and that prisons were too easy and sentences were too short. I have no problem with charity that’s prompted by self-interest, but call it what it is: he started caring about prisoners after he became one. That being said, yes, prisoners have rights too. > [@](#): > > Most of the prisoners he helped were felons who had their voting rights stripped and could not be of any service to a political party. Colson, of course, eventually got his voting rights back because of his connections to powerful Republicans. > [@](#): > > Through self sacrificial service to the lowly he made our society a better place. Too bad he only started doing that after trying so hard to make it worse. > [@](#): > > Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age. Saying that he tried to do right after doing wrong is one thing; saying it makes him “great” and “one of the giants of our age” is just nauseating. Most of us are able to do right without doing the kinds of things he did and then being “awakended” to the truth about scummy behavior. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/48 "2012-04-24T15:48:41Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age. That’s it. I’m moving out of Lilliput. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/49 "2012-04-24T15:52:42Z")
Bullshit, he made a plea bargain and got off with less prison time than any of the others. In fact he plead the 5th while facing while facing a conspiracy charge, and only testified after getting the charge reduced to obstruction. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/50 "2012-04-24T15:59:37Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > … Through self sacrificial service to the lowly he made our society a better place. Truly a great man, one of the giants of our age. There are many many thousands of teachers, ministers, health volunteers, etc. who decline a more lucrative career because they want to contribute to society. Are they all “great people, among the giants of our age”? No. Colson was a despicable felon who _may_ have risen from his stench to achieve almost-normal morality. The adjective “great” has no meaning here except in a context like “greatly reformed.” The people calling him “great” now are the same people who called his 1970’s critics “hateful.” BTW, is this why a recent President is considered so “great”, indeed voted as “the greatest living American”? He rose from being a drunken fratboy buffoon to being a sober buffoon, and achieved the distinction of “undoubtedly the worst President ever.” Great? As I said earlier, _desperation_ is the word that comes to mind about this idea that Colson was “great.” ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/51 "2012-04-24T18:53:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He did get off with a lesser punishment. This is not accurate with regard to Colson and it’s not an accurate description of what happens when you “fight the charges.” When you plead not guilty, you may get no prison time at all if you’re acquitted on all charges, but you may be convicted on a bunch of charges and get more jail time. It’s a bigger risk. When you plead guilty like Colson did, you get a lighter sentence than you might’ve received if you were convicted after pleading not guilty. It’s dealmaking. Wikipedia says that Colson “found himself torn between his desire to be truthful and his desire to avoid conviction on charges of which he believed himself innocent. Following prayer and consultation with his fellowship group, Colson approached his lawyers and suggested a plea of guilty to a different criminal charge of which he did consider himself culpable.” So he plead guilty to stuff he thought he did but wouldn’t own up to other things, which seems to have been the pattern he followed later in life. > > As part of his plea, he was not charged with anything related to the actual Watergate burglary, only the Ellsberg job. He was sentenced to one to three years in prison and was released after seven months. I am not sure how much jail time he was facing if he’d been convicted of everything, but I am sure it was much more. In any case all of that hardly makes a person great. > ISaying that he tried to do right after doing wrong is one thing; saying it makes him “great” and “one of the giants of our age” is just nauseating. Most of us are able to do right without doing the kinds of things he did and then being “awakended” to the truth about scummy behavior. If you read further in the Wikipedia article it says the guilty plea came “at a time when the judge was making noises about dismissing the charges against him”. Furthermore he was offered a deal to plead guilty to a misdemeanor, which would have allowed him to practice law, in exchange for the prosecution recommending no jail time. It was not just that he awakended that what he was doing was wrong and stopped doing wrong things, it was he passed up a life of wealth and prestige to spend his time with the poor and the downtrodden trying to help those who society hates. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/52 "2012-04-24T19:10:34Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If you read further in the Wikipedia article it says the guilty plea came “at a time when the judge was making noises about dismissing the charges against him”. Yes, I did see that. He still denied responsibility for anything to do with Watergate, made no amends with Ellsberg, and avoided the risk of more serious jail time by taking a plea. > [@](#): > > Furthermore he was offered a deal to plead guilty to a misdemeanor, which would have allowed him to practice law, in exchange for the prosecution recommending no jail time. And didn’t take it because…? > [@](#): > > It was not just that he awakended that what he was doing was wrong and stopped doing wrong things, it was he passed up a life of wealth and prestige to spend his time with the poor and the downtrodden trying to help those who society hates. He did not become rich as perhaps he could have, but he did alright for himself and experienced plenty of prestige as a big name in the Christian conservative movement. I’m not seeing “he could have been punished less severely for his crimes” and “he could have made more money” as the makings of a great man and one of the giants of our age. If a former Nixon criminal is a giant of our age because of that - some apparently commendable work with prisoners and a loud contribution to the evangelical Christian movement - I’d say we’re all completely screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/53 "2012-04-25T15:08:04Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I don’t really doubt that his acceptance of Christianity (of a conservative/evangelical flavor) was genuine, and at the time I’m not sure he had much to gain by publically doing so. Well, one thing he gained was people making threads calling him a “great man.” That’s an incentive for some people. > [@puddleglum](#): > > it was he passed up a life of wealth and prestige to spend his time with the poor and the downtrodden Well, he had _some_ prestige – people are calling him a “great man.” **I’m** helping the downtrodden and **I** don’t make much money, but nobody calls **me** a “great man.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558/54 "2012-04-25T20:23:38Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > **I’m** helping the downtrodden and **I** don’t make much money, but nobody calls **me** a “great man.” We do think of you as a terrific schooner, tho. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-colson-dead-at-80/619558.md?page=2)