# Charles Freeman fails the Loyalty Test **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100 "2009-03-11T17:53:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/21 "2009-03-13T22:25:38Z")
> [@intention](#): > > But in Freeman’s case, it’s more than just an appearance. Indeed. [ > [@](#): > > Lawmakers of both parties had expressed concern about Mr. Freeman’s business ties, including a post on an advisory board at state-owned China National Offshore Oil Corp. that he held until Feb. 1. Mr. Freeman consulted widely for international corporations as chairman of a Washington-based consulting firm, Projects International. > > On March 6, Mr. Blair wrote to lawmakers that Mr. Freeman’s policy council received “no more than one-twelfth” of its annual $600,000 operating budget from Saudi government contributions. He also said Mr. Freeman received $10,000 a year from the Chinese oil company. > > In his statement, Mr. Freeman denied being paid by any foreign government, including Saudi Arabia or China. ]([http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/?a=kill\_detail&kll\_id=154549](http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=154549)) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/22 "2009-03-13T22:52:39Z")
Hahahahahah. I linked to the wrong thing by accident. [This](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123671973608687743.html) is the right one. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/23 "2009-03-14T02:21:42Z")
Nice job with that heavy beam laser, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/24 "2009-03-14T05:28:16Z")
> [@](#): > > The problem is that Freeman almost always supports the Saudis. And the Chinese. He’s in bed with both. He lauds both. He writes paeans to Mao. He talks of “Abdullah the Great” of Saudi Arabia. Could you provide a cite for this? I suspect the praise of Mao would have been in the context of Nixon’s famous visit to China when IIRC Freeman served as translator. You could probably find similar statements by Kissinger and Nixon himself. As for Saudi Arabia, it is undoubtedly a fairly repressive government though nowhere close to being the most totalitarian in the world. (compare it to North Korea for example). At the same time it is a highly useful ally of the US and has been so for decades. And Freeman was ambassador there; praising his host country was practically part of his job description. As for Saudi funding for MEPC, it was a piddling sum of money; compare for example with the millions of dollars the Saudi government donated to the Clinton Foundation which haven’t disqualified Hillary Clinton from serving as SOS. The same goes for the CNOOC advisory board which is a pretty innocuous position; for example Henry Kissinger once [served](http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200110/29/eng20011029_83454.html)on that same board. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/25 "2009-03-14T08:34:28Z")
Allow me to agree that he failed the ‘Loyalty Test’ yes, but not in the way one would think. He was nominated, pressure built, he stepped aside, _and then he criticized those who nominated him_. This is, in Washington, the ultimate failure of loyalty. Even if things go wrong, as they did here, one does NOT criticize ones benefactors. More cynically, one never criticizes those who control the jobs. I hope he has a book deal or something lined up. He’s done in Washington. At least among the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/26 "2009-03-14T15:50:31Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Freeman’s critics weren’t asking him to clarify his views or explain how they have evolved; they were flat-out condemning him as unacceptably radical and unfit to serve. Terrible. Such criticism should be forbidden in a free society. :rolleyes: Freeman obviously had problems on multiple fronts, but AIPAC makes a nice whipping boy for his downfall. Funny how when lobbying groups (for example AIPAC, the NRA, AARP etc.) have success in influencing national policy, they become targets of attack for their overweening and downright sinister power. It is never conceded that their opponents have a big media and fundraising base with which to operate and should be able to mount p.r. offensives that are just as or more effective than those of the opposition. It is _verboten_ to acknowledge that these Evil Lobbies are effective to a major extent because their messages resonate with a large number of Americans. That would require some self-searching, and possibly even a willingness to acknowledge that one’s own message requires retuning and possibly even significant alteration. Can’t have that. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/27 "2009-03-15T21:48:06Z")
> [@intention](#): > > YMMV, but I don’t want a man like that whispering in the President’s ear … How do you feel about the [Saudi king walking hand-in-hand](http://unitedcats.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/bush-abdullah.jpg)with our president? Oh, [and whispering in his ear?](http://myapologies.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/bush_abdullah_kiss.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/28 "2009-03-15T22:39:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I find it disturbing how careers can be ruined for resisting AIPAC. He makes a good point that the debate about Israel is freer in Israel and Europe than it is in America. Fareed Z. of CNN interviewed him this evening. You can see the video on the CNN website [here](http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2009/03/15/gps.intv.freeman.cnn?iref=videosearch). - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/29 "2009-03-16T19:44:11Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > How do you feel about the [Saudi king walking hand-in-hand](http://unitedcats.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/bush-abdullah.jpg)with our president? > > Oh, [and whispering in his ear?](http://myapologies.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/bush_abdullah_kiss.jpg) **Gala Matrix Fire** , thanks for asking. I didn’t like Bush’s closeness with the Saudis any more than I like Freeman’s … ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/30 "2009-03-16T21:01:04Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > … > As for Saudi Arabia, it is undoubtedly a fairly repressive government though nowhere close to being the most totalitarian in the world. (compare it to North Korea for example). … **Lantern** , thanks for the contribution. There’s something called a “polity” score. It is used to place countries on a scale from totally totalitarian (-10) to totally democratic (+10). Here’s the lowest scores in 2004: > [@](#): > > Qatar, -10 > Saudi Arabia, -10 > Korea North, -9 > Swaziland, -9 > Turkmenistan, -9 > Uzbekistan, -9 > Bhutan, -8 > Myanmar (Burma), -8 > Oman, -8 > UAE, -8 > Azerbaijan, -7 > Bahrain, -7 > Belarus, -7 > China, -7 > Cuba, -7 > Eritrea, -7 > Kuwait, -7 > Laos, -7 > Libya, -7 > Syria, -7 > Vietnam, -7 > Zimbabwe, -7 It’s actually a very good, clear, unbiased method of scoring … and it supports my contention. Two countries in the world got -10, and neither of them was North Korea. See the [Polity Database Homepage](http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/polity4.htm) for more info, it’s actually quite fascinating. You can look at how the scores have changed over time … well, except for Saudi Arabia’s score … ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100/31 "2009-03-16T23:59:45Z")
> [@intention](#): > > **Gala Matrix Fire** , thanks for asking. I didn’t like Bush’s closeness with the Saudis any more than I like Freeman’s … Cuts a million different ways, though - when Clinton released his donors to the Clinton Foundation recently, it wasn’t done in a totally transparent fashion. Donors were grouped according to how much they gave - we don’t necessarily know how much that was. Even with that, though, we know that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia gave more than ten million bucks and less than 25 million bucks. They gave similar amounts to build the George H.W. Bush library. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-freeman-fails-the-loyalty-test/489100.md?page=1)