# Charles Manson in non-USA societies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2015, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772 "2015-06-06T07:55:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/1 "2015-06-06T07:55:35Z")
The Charles Manson story and its horror imposed on America in 1969-1970 is well documented. In the United States, the murders committed by the Manson family and the subsequent trial are arguably one of the most socially and aesthetically disturbing crimes ever committed in America. An actress and her unborn baby slaughtered with knives, with their blood smeared in menacing messages all over their house; a crazed ringleader and his band of crazy-eyed female followers, all even going to the length of having their heads shaved and carving symbols into their foreheads. Surely, the Manson crimes on the heels of 1969 horrors such as Altamont were the epitome of ultimate, anti-American, Satanic evil. Were other countries just as disturbed? Or are there other countries that suffered equally or worse “shock crimes” similar to the Manson murders? How was the Manson family debacle treated across the world, and are their other non-USA examples of murder that shocked other societies just the same or even more so? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/2 "2015-06-06T12:01:57Z")
Manson’s certainly well-known in Scandinavia, I can tell you that much. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/3 "2015-06-06T12:32:07Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > are their other non-USA examples of murder that shocked other societies just the same or even more so? There _was_ [this _one_ guy…](http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/yp4ecfb076.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/4 "2015-06-06T13:11:56Z")
I’m not sure I follow your logic. The USA has had its share of incredible psychopaths for a long time - for example H. H. Holmes - > **[H. H. Holmes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Holmes)** > > Herman Webster Mudgett (May 16, 1861 – May 7, 1896), better known as Dr. Henry Howard Holmes or H. H. Holmes, was an American con artist and serial killer, the subject of more than 50 lawsuits in Chicago alone. Until his execution in 1896, he chose a career of crime including insurance fraud, swindling, check forging, three to four bigamous illegal marriages, horse theft and murder. > Despite his confession of 27 murders (including some people who were verifiably still alive) while awaiting exec... Similarly, I would argue Jack the Ripper has had a bigger impact on media and mass consciousness for much longer. I suppose the only thing to note is that this would only be shocking in a country with established order; there are some countries where lawlessness and death are commonplace, and it would be harder to get away, because “beyond a reasonable doubt” is unnecessary for justice to be seen to be done - either by the police or by irate neighbours. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/5 "2015-06-06T13:54:16Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m not sure I follow your logic. The USA has had its share of incredible psychopaths for a long time - for example H. H. Holmes - > > [H. H. Holmes - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Holmes) > > Similarly, I would argue Jack the Ripper has had a bigger impact on media and mass consciousness for much longer. > > I suppose the only thing to note is that this would only be shocking in a country with established order; there are some countries where lawlessness and death are commonplace, and it would be harder to get away, because “beyond a reasonable doubt” is unnecessary for justice to be seen to be done - either by the police or by irate neighbours. Regarding the OP’s question, the “See Also” on that article will lead you to a list of serial killers by country: > **[List of serial killers by country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country)** > > This is a list of notable serial killers, by the country where most of the killings occurred. > This is a list of unsolved murders which are believed to have been committed by unidentified serial killers. It includes circumstances where a suspect has been arrested, but not convicted. Some of them probably caused quite a lot of shock. You will note that most of that list is 19th - 21st centuries, but includes Elizabeth Bathory and Gilles De Rais, stories of whom survive precisely because they were so shocking: > **[Elizabeth Báthory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory)** > > Countess Elizabeth Báthory of Ecsed (Hungarian: Báthori Erzsébet, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[ˈbaːtɔrɪ ˈɛrʒeːbɛt\]; Slovak: Alžbeta Bátoriová; 7 August 1560 – 21 August 1614) was a Hungarian noblewoman and alleged serial killer from the powerful House of Báthory, who owned land in the Kingdom of Hungary (now Slovaki > **[Gilles de Rais](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_de_Rais)** > > Gilles de Rais (c. 1405 – 26 October 1440), Baron de Rais, was a knight and lord from Brittany, Anjou and Poitou, a leader in the French army during the Hundred Years' War, and a companion-in-arms of Joan of Arc. He is best known for his reputation and later conviction as a confessed serial killer of children. > In 1429, he formed an alliance with his cousin Georges de La Trémoille, the prominent Grand Chamberlain of France, and was appointed Marshal of France the same year, after the successful... ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/6 "2015-06-06T14:03:05Z")
Note also that Bathory and Gilles De Rey were able to carry out their crimes in such large scope and escape “summary” or any other form of justice for a long time because they were privileged aristocrats. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/7 "2015-06-06T14:31:24Z")
Certainly the Manson killings received wall to wall coverage in the Australian media. Firstly in the press and on TV and later magazine style coverage in all media formats. Of course there were far fewer outlets in those days but the crimes were an absolute sensation world wide. There had been similar events before them such as the Moors murders and the assassination of JFK. There have been other touchstone crimes since: 9/11, Columbine and others too numerous to mention. The Manson crimes were committed at exactly the right time in history and dominated media coverage. The worst school massacre in US history received relatively little coverage. It was ahead of its time and overshadowed by Charles Lindbergh’s crossing of the Atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/8 "2015-06-06T19:48:20Z")
Jack the Ripper in the Uk, and Breivik in Norway probably had a similar shock effect, and Breivik got a harsher punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/9 "2015-06-06T20:18:36Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > The worst school massacre in US history received relatively little coverage. It was ahead of its time and overshadowed by Charles Lindbergh’s crossing of the Atlantic. For those interested, **don’t ask** is referring to the mass murder at the [Bath Consolidated School](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster), in Bath Township, Michigan in 1927. Andrew Kehoe set bombs in the school (the dynamite in one wing of the school failed to explode) and in his truck, killing 38 children and six adults. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/10 "2015-06-06T20:25:14Z")
These were each notorious British criminal cases in their day: > **[William Palmer (murderer)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Palmer_(murderer))** > > William Palmer (6 August 1824 – 14 June 1856), also known as the Rugeley Poisoner or the Prince of Poisoners, was an English doctor found guilty of murder in one of the most notorious cases of the 19th century. Charles Dickens called Palmer "the greatest villain that ever stood in the Old Bailey". > Palmer was convicted for the 1855 murder of his friend John Cook, and was executed in public by hanging the following year. He had poisoned Cook with strychnine and was suspected of poisoning several... > **[Mary Bell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell)** > > Mary Flora Bell (born 26 May 1957) is an English woman who, as a juvenile, killed two preschool-age boys in Scotswood, an inner suburb of Newcastle upon Tyne, in 1968. Bell committed her first killing when she was 10 years old. In both instances, Bell informed her victim he had a sore throat, which she would massage before proceeding to strangle him. > Bell was convicted of manslaughter in relation to both killings in December 1968, in a trial held at Newcastle Assizes when she was 11 years old... > **[Murder of James Bulger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger)** > > James Patrick Bulger (16 March 1990 – 12 February 1993) was a two-year-old boy from Kirkby, Merseyside, England, who was abducted, tortured, and murdered by two 10-year-old boys, Robert Thompson (born 23 August 1982) and Jon Venables (born 13 August 1982), on 12 February 1993. Thompson and Venables led Bulger away from the New Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle, after his mother had taken her eyes off him momentarily. His mutilated body was found on a railway line two and a half miles (fou Thomp... ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/11 "2015-06-06T22:33:07Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m not sure I follow your logic. The USA has had its share of incredible psychopaths for a long time - for example H. H. Holmes Yea, even in the States I’m not sure Manson is seen as particularly worse or more sensational than various other mass-killers. I’d say Jeff Dahmer, Harris and Kebold, Timothy McVeigh, Gacy and Kazcynski probably have at least as large a hold on the public conciousness, and bin Laden certainly more. Manson kind of fit into the fears of the time, which is why it seemed like such a big deal circa 1970 (not that it wasn’t sensational in its own right). Nowadays no ones really afraid that Hippies leading bands brainwashed murderous teenagers is going to be a big problem, so he’s kinda been merged with the various other sensational serial killers. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/12 "2015-06-07T02:29:34Z")
Plus all those oddball interviews Manson has given over the years has made him more the object of mockery than fear. I’d say Ted Bundy (the “perfect guy” turned serial killer), Jeffrey Dahmer (cannibalism is inherently shocking), and John Wayne Gacy (the guy who almost singehandedly created the “clowns are evil” meme, plus pedophilia is the ultimate taboo) are more iconic symbols of evil than Manson. I think a more interesting question is “who is your country’s most iconic murderer”. From what I’ve read, Myra Hindley is the UK’s ultimate symbol of evil. Would you say that’s accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/13 "2015-06-07T04:40:15Z")
“Most iconic” may not even be someone whose name people know. The Spanish word _sacamantecas_, lit. “removes-fat”, is both a name for a bogeyman and used to describe a leech, someone who takes a lot and never gives: I give you not [one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_D%C3%ADaz_de_Garayo), but [two](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Blanco_Romasanta) serial murderers who did exactly that. But while I knew that the name was linked to actual cases thanks to a documentary I watched just a few weeks back, I doubt most people will be able to name either case - even those who live in the areas where the murders took place. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/14 "2015-06-07T07:46:02Z")
Technically, Manson was never convicted of actually killing anyone… ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/15 "2015-06-07T08:00:36Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m not sure I follow your logic. The USA has had its share of incredible psychopaths for a long time - for example H. H. Holmes - > > [H. H. Holmes - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Holmes) > > Similarly, I would argue Jack the Ripper has had a bigger impact on media and mass consciousness for much longer. > > I suppose the only thing to note is that this would only be shocking in a country with established order; there are some countries where lawlessness and death are commonplace, and it would be harder to get away, because “beyond a reasonable doubt” is unnecessary for justice to be seen to be done - either by the police or by irate neighbours. I dont know if you are American or not, but here, the Manson murders still resonate and NO ONE has no clue who the fuck hell HH Holmes is, regardless of his crimes. As for Jack the Ripper, at this point he is a menacing historical icon transcending true crime, in any English speaking culture so to compare Charles Manson with Jack the Ripper is a bit unfair, in this context of course… As for other American Psychos mentioned, Jeffrey Dammer is perhaps the only name recognized by most Americans; Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy are mere serial killer asterisks at this point, remembered only by those 50 and over. I would say most Americans despite their age know how horrible Charles Manson was, even in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![pinetreelines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/41988e/32.png) [@pinetreelines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinetreelines)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/16 "2015-06-07T08:21:12Z")
The majority of these responses are comparing Manson to serial killers, but he was much more than that. He was a psychopathic serial killer, he was a chauvinistic cult leader, he believed that the world would end in an impending apocalyptic race war after hearing a Beatles song and convinced a great number of people to worship him. Manson was THE figure that represented the darkness in american culture. With Charles Manson, it goes MUCH deeper than being just a serial killer. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/17 "2015-06-07T08:58:22Z")
Perhaps that’s the point: what is it that leads to the perception of some such crimes as emblematic of something deeply wrong in a society, and others (however gruesome and catastrophic for the victims) as just another example of individual human squalor and moral/mental failure (in British terms, compare and contrast Jack the Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nilsen, David Copeland, Colin Ireland, Fred West - or indeed the Moors Murderers)? Is some of the fascination around the Manson case the Hollywood connection, some sense of a dark underside to all the new ideas of the 60s (or just a kneejerk reaction from those who couldn’t cope with them)? Or is it - dare I say it - a rather warped variation of American exceptionalism that assumes there has to be a broader meaning to something like this? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/18 "2015-06-07T09:08:13Z")
Again, can Manson be a serial killer without having actually killed anyone? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/19 "2015-06-07T09:13:21Z")
The Manson case is replete with deeper meaning for society. He took advantage of the drug culture to make a group of weak unwanted people bend to his will. His tribe was able to escape notice by blending in with the larger hippee movement. He used economic and cultural stereotyping that allowed otherwise ordinary peoiple to kill…their victims were pigs afterall. This was no ordinary bunch of killings. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/20 "2015-06-07T09:44:40Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Perhaps that’s the point: what is it that leads to the perception of some such crimes as emblematic of something deeply wrong in a society, and others (however gruesome and catastrophic for the victims) as just another example of individual human squalor and moral/mental failure (in British terms, compare and contrast Jack the Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nilsen, David Copeland, Colin Ireland, Fred West - or indeed the Moors Murderers)? > > Is some of the fascination around the Manson case the Hollywood connection, some sense of a dark underside to all the new ideas of the 60s (or just a kneejerk reaction from those who couldn’t cope with them)? Or is it - dare I say it - a rather warped variation of American exceptionalism that assumes there has to be a broader meaning to something like this? I don’t know about American exceptionalism but there is a link between Manson’s reputation then and now and a strong healthy, or indeed, unhealthy media. A similar individual as Manson in much of the world would not have recieved half as much coverage. One reason Jack the Ripper was so famous is precisely because a free press was outdoing itself in attempting to report the gruesome and titillating details. In fact Jack the Ripper was almost certainly a name coined by a journalist pretending to be the murderer. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772.md?page=2)