# Charles Manson in non-USA societies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2015, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772 "2015-06-06T07:55:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/21 "2015-06-07T13:54:47Z")
In many ways Manson was close to a David Koresh or a Jim Jones. IOW, the charismatic crazy guy with a deranged and dangerous clan of followers. The big difference is Koresh & crew were killed by the Feds before they did any harm to the outside world. (Note I’m not suggesting they had plans to harm the outside world; I don’t know the details well enough to say whether they did or didn’t.) And Jim Jones’ followers killed themselves, not others. And did it in a small foreign country. Had they instead lived in the Midwest somewhere the hoopla would have been even more extreme than it was. Bottom line: for the typical audience member, those groups were equally weird as Manson, but didn’t have the same potential menace to John Q Public. Its easy to look at Koresh or Jones and say “\*I’d \*never fall in with somebody like them, so I’m not scared.” I also think this is one of those things where each of us remembers the big event that happened in our teens or early adult years as especially extraordinary. It wasn’t really; it just seems so from your POV. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/22 "2015-06-07T14:50:47Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The big difference is Koresh & crew were killed by the Feds before they did any harm to the outside world. (Note I’m not suggesting they had plans to harm the outside world; I don’t know the details well enough to say whether they did or didn’t.) Yet you went ahead and smeared them anyway. They’re dead and who would defend a group of religious weirdoes anyway, right? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/23 "2015-06-07T14:55:31Z")
[Crippen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawley_Harvey_Crippen) still comes up in popular culture from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/24 "2015-06-08T05:01:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > And Jim Jones’ followers killed themselves, not others. Except for the five people they killed, including [a U.S. Congressman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown#Port_Kaituma_airstrip_shootings). ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/25 "2015-06-08T05:34:39Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > I dont know if you are American or not, but here, the Manson murders still resonate and NO ONE has no clue who the fuck hell HH Holmes is, regardless of his crimes. > > As for Jack the Ripper, at this point he is a menacing historical icon transcending true crime, in any English speaking culture so to compare Charles Manson with Jack the Ripper is a bit unfair, in this context of course… > > As for other American Psychos mentioned, Jeffrey Dammer is perhaps the only name recognized by most Americans; Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy are mere serial killer asterisks at this point, remembered only by those 50 and over. > > I would say most Americans despite their age know how horrible Charles Manson was, even in 2015. I don’t know - I was in high school when all that happened, and here in Canada we got a lot of the US media - but I never realized it was any more or less than any other murders of the time. Certainly murders of JFK, RFK, MLK had a much larger impact than Manson. Maybe I was too young to see “dirty hippies” as a threat, but it seems to me by the time one of his girls took a pot-shot at Gerald Ford he was more of a joke than a horror in the popular media. Maybe the whole episode is a good Rorschach test of what we perceive about society at the time, each person’s private fears and obsessions. The whole “Helter Skelter” as guide, women who did his bidding and bedding, raving looney religious stuff - you can’t make this stuff up, if he hadn’t been lethal he’d be hilarious, like Doug Henning and his yogi buddy claiming to fly and bring world peace. But certainly it seemed to me there were a lot more “iconic” incidents of the sixties. From what I recall of the media at the time, it certainly didn’t stand out as one of the “one of the most socially and aesthetically disturbing crimes ever committed in America”. Of course, from my perspective, Canada was less obsessed with Christianity in general and so less obsessed with seeing Satanism and satanic cults everywhere. From my perspective, 99% of that Satanic carp was teenagers looking for something to piss off their parents. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/26 "2015-06-08T05:56:16Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Again, can Manson be a serial killer without having actually killed anyone? I never said he was a “serial killer”. HOWEVER: - On January 25, 1971, Manson was convicted of first-degree murder for directing the deaths of the Tate/LaBianca victims. \* As per Google, Wikipedia, Vincent Bugliosi, and I would be willing the bet 100 other records. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/27 "2015-06-08T07:18:51Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > I never said he was a “serial killer”. HOWEVER: > > - > > On January 25, 1971, Manson was convicted of first-degree murder for directing the deaths of the Tate/LaBianca victims. \* > > As per Google, Wikipedia, Vincent Bugliosi, and I would be willing the bet 100 other records. He certainly ordered them; but he wasnt even at the Tate and La Bianca murder scenes. He was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder. > [@](#): > > In 1971 he was found guilty of conspiracy to commit the murders of seven people: actress Sharon Tate and four other people at Tate’s home; and the next day, a married couple, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca; all carried out by members of the group at his instruction. He was convicted of the murders through the joint-responsibility rule, which makes each member of a conspiracy guilty of crimes his fellow conspirators commit in furtherance of the conspiracy’s objective ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/28 "2015-06-08T09:06:09Z")
The difference with Manson is the cultlike following and getting people to do his dirty work for him. Is there anyone else like that, especially in another country? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/29 "2015-06-09T08:44:15Z")
And sadly Bugliosi dies today ☹ > **[Famed Manson family prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi dies at 80](https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-vincent-bugliosi-20150609-story.html#navtype=outfit)** > > Near the close of the 1960s, everyone who kept up with the news knew who Charles Manson was, but hardly anyone had heard of Vincent Bugliosi. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/30 "2015-06-09T09:31:39Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And sadly Bugliosi dies today ☹ > > [Famed Manson family prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi dies at 80](http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-vincent-bugliosi-20150609-story.html#navtype=outfit) Damn, that is sad news. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/31 "2015-06-09T11:07:08Z")
Charle Manson murders are well known in France, but I guess in good part due to the Hollywood connection, and I suspect probably less so amongst the younger generations. Regarding famous French crimes, I’m not sure. I’d guess that [Landru](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_D%C3%A9sir%C3%A9_Landru)(on whom Charlie Chaplin based his “Mr Verdoux”) and the [Dr Petiot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Petiot)might be the most famous French murderers of the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/32 "2015-06-09T12:09:03Z")
[QUOTE=russian heel;18418128Surely, the Manson crimes on the heels of 1969 horrors such as Altamont [/quote] Far more horrific things have happened in the United States before and since Altamont. Why should that be held up as some kind of pinnacle of evil? > [@](#): > > were the epitome of ultimate, anti-American, Satanic evil. Ultimate? Our history has seen many people who engaged in behaviors just as horrifying. Delphine LaLaurie, for example, or Dennis Rader. There’s plenty of evil to go around. And little of it has anything to do with being pro- or anti-American. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/33 "2015-06-09T12:16:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The difference with Manson is the cultlike following and getting people to do his dirty work for him. Is there anyone else like that, especially in another country? Adolf Hitler. To name but one. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/34 "2015-06-09T16:44:13Z")
How about Pol Pot? Manson is nowhere near the big leagues. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Milton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6bbea6/32.png) [@Mr.Milton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Milton)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/35 "2015-06-09T16:55:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Or are there other countries that suffered equally or worse “shock crimes” similar to the Manson murders? The two that come to mind for me immediately are Fritz Haarman and Peter Kurten, especailly the former. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz\_Haarmann](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haarmann) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter\_K%C3%BCrten](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_K%C3%BCrten) IIRC, even during WW2 with all the horrible stuff going on then, when the local people began to notice that the postal-buses that delivered patients to the “hospital” (euthanasia center) at Hadamar always seemed to go in full and come out empty, someone wrote “HAARMAN” in the dust on the back, and everyone knew exactly what that was suposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/36 "2015-06-09T17:39:09Z")
While political figures can be mass murderers but not that are applicable to this discussion IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/37 "2015-06-09T17:47:45Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > . . . by the time one of his girls took a pot-shot at Gerald Ford he was more of a joke than a horror in the popular media. . . . . I think the fact that ‘his girls’ did things years later to bring him back into the news has helped him to stick in the mind of the public. Charlie also had a really good instinct for how to freak the mundanes and was delighted at how the press ate his antics up. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/38 "2015-06-09T17:53:08Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > to freak the mundanes Is this your way of saying you are better than most others? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/39 "2015-06-09T20:28:08Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > While political figures can be mass murderers but not that are applicable to this discussion IMO. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772/40 "2015-06-09T20:33:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why not? Because we are talking about garden variety murderers. Political figures kill because they demonize their victims and feel that society needs to eliminate them from the mix to achieve their warped sense of fairness. They would not kill for pleasure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson-in-non-usa-societies/721772.md?page=3)