# Charles Manson **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 14, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258 "2013-02-14T04:53:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/1 "2013-02-14T04:53:03Z")
About [Why did Charles Manson think “Helter Skelter” was about a race war?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1054/why-did-charles-manson-think-helter-skelter-was-about-a-race-war) I realize this is an older column, but I thought the idea that Manson supposedly was trying to start a race war had been debunked. Manson was crazy but not that crazy. Manson was an aspiring song writer. He thought that record producer Terry Melcher had screwed him over a promised record deal so he decided to kill Melcher. But he figured if Melcher just turned up dead, he might be an obvious suspect. So he came up with a plan to make Melcher’s murder look like one of a series of random killings. He sent his followers out to kill everyone at Melcher’s house and then the next night sent them out to kill people in two other houses (although one of these attacks was aborted). There were some flaws in Manson’s plan (besides the obvious moral ones). First, Melcher no longer lived in the house Manson targeted. Second, while Manson may have hidden his personal connection to Melcher, he ended up being caught anyway because he made the crimes look like the work of a murderous cult group and Manson actually was the leader of a murderous cult group. The “Helter Skelter” race war story was just something Manson came up with to confuse other people. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/2 "2013-02-14T05:05:06Z")
Is that based on what Charlie says? ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/3 "2013-02-14T20:17:03Z")
I thought the idea that Manson supposedly was trying to start a race war had been debunked Where and when and by whom? “he made the crimes look like the work of a murderous cult group and Manson actually was the leader of a murderous cult group.” But he wasn’t known to be the leader of a murderous cult group, partly because the family wasn’t a murderous cult group until the first murder. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/4 "2013-02-14T20:24:24Z")
I have heard that Charlie has said after his conviction that he thought Melcher still lived in the house, and that his motive was revenge. He’s not a credible source though. I’ve heard one comment that he was saying this to enhance his prison status. However, unless someone has some other information, everyone else involved believed the ‘race war’ was the reason for committing the murders. So unless Charlie told someone else about the revenge motive before the fact, there’s no reason to believe it was his actual motivation. And there’s no reason to believe anything about what his actual motivation was becase he is and was batshit crazy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/5 "2013-02-14T20:29:35Z")
To the best of my information, your version contradicts the known facts. You’re going to have to provide a lot more than just saying saying that “[you] thought [the standard narrative] had been debunked.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/6 "2013-02-14T23:32:49Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > To the best of my information, your version contradicts the known facts. You’re going to have to provide a lot more than just saying saying that “[you] thought [the standard narrative] had been debunked.” You’re asking me for a cite for something I thought? If so, then my post is my cite. Now granted, what I thought might be wrong. Maybe I should start a thread on the topic or something. ---
**Author:** ![Cheez\_Whia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d26b3c/32.png) [@Cheez\_Whia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheez_Whia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/7 "2013-02-15T14:47:54Z")
You might want to read about it: [Helter Skelter](http://www.amazon.com/Helter-Skelter-Story-Manson-Murders/dp/0393322238/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360939450&sr=1-1&keywords=helter+skelter). Bugliosi was pretty thorough in investigating and prosecuting The Family for these murders, and goes into why they were committed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/8 "2013-02-15T17:15:22Z")
> [@Cheez\_Whia](#): > > You might want to read about it: [Helter Skelter](http://www.amazon.com/Helter-Skelter-Story-Manson-Murders/dp/0393322238/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360939450&sr=1-1&keywords=helter+skelter). Bugliosi was pretty thorough in investigating and prosecuting The Family for these murders, and goes into why they were committed. I’ve read _Helter Skelter_. But Bugliosi was the prosecutor at Manson’s trial and wrote his book about the murders shortly afterwards. So I think his book should be considered more like the “first draft of history” rather than the final word. I’m asking what information has come to light in the decades since the trial. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/9 "2013-02-15T17:28:12Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > But he wasn’t known to be the leader of a murderous cult group, partly because the family wasn’t a murderous cult group until the first murder. There had been other crimes before the Tate and LaBianca murders. A man named Gary Hinman had been killed by family members because he supposedly owed Manson money and the police had arrested family member Bobby Beausoleil for the crime. It was the investigation of this earlier crime that first led the police to the Manson family during the investigations of the later murders. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/10 "2013-02-15T19:54:13Z")
Your entire argument seems to boil down to, “Bugliati is probably wrong, because, after all, some people are wrong sometimes.” There are many kinds of rebuttal; this is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/11 "2013-02-16T01:11:09Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Your entire argument seems to boil down to, “Bugliati is probably wrong, because, after all, some people are wrong sometimes.” There are many kinds of rebuttal; this is not one of them. Then you didn’t read it well. The fact that Manson knew Melcher isn’t speculation. It’s an established fact that Manson knew Melcher and was mad at him for business reasons. So if Manson was mad at Melcher for business reasons and Manson sent people to go kill Melcher, can you see how it’s possible that Manson’s motives for the crime were those business reasons and it wasn’t just a random crime? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/12 "2013-02-16T01:44:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Then you didn’t read it well. The fact that Manson knew Melcher isn’t speculation. It’s an established fact that Manson knew Melcher and was mad at him for business reasons. > > So if Manson was mad at Melcher for business reasons and Manson sent people to go kill Melcher, can you see how it’s possible that Manson’s motives for the crime were those business reasons and it wasn’t just a random crime? Manson was thought to know that Melcher had moved. Other family members said they knew Melcher no longer lived there. As far as I know, Charlie is the only person who says he thought Melcher lived there, and I explained why that may be earlier in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/13 "2013-02-16T02:37:54Z")
The way I’m seeing it (and I’m not claiming this is the definitive truth) all the information we have about Manson’s motives ultimately comes from Manson himself. At one point, he talked about inciting a race war. At other points, he talking about a supposed grievance he had with Terry Melcher. Now I’m not going to trust Manson just because he said something. But it seems to me that it would be an amazing coincidence if he sent his followers to a specific address to kill people in order to start a race war - and it was just a coincidence that a person he was mad at lived at that address. If Manson was just interested in starting a race war, he could have picked any house in Southern California. The fact that he picked what he thought was Terry Melcher’s house as the location for his murders suggests to me that Melcher was a specific target. As for what Manson knew about Melcher’s current whereabouts on the night he sent his followers out, who knows? Manson himself may not know at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charles-manson/650258/14 "2013-02-16T14:39:36Z")
It could have simply been a case of him knowing the layout and logistics of Melcher’s old home so he used that for his initial target. When he found that his followers were actually willing to kill for him he had to branch out and find a random home for the next murders. If I recall correctly, they went directly to Polanski’s but wandered a couple of neighborhoods, considered and rejected several homes before settling on the LoBiancas. Not claiming whether Manson knew Manson had moved or that I have actual knowledge of his motives. However, most criminals will direct their efforts towards the targets they know best before they get the courage to branch out into new ones.