# Charleston, SC church shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 18, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823 "2015-06-18T04:15:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/281 "2015-06-21T17:18:30Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I think he was pretty far gone already if he can be talked into killing and maiming an unknown number of random strangers who had nothing to do with his “cause”. Do they believe it an act of revenge for Muslims killed in their country, or do they just want to kill people? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/282 "2015-06-21T17:19:11Z")
But is he nuts, by the same standard you are applying to Roof? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/283 "2015-06-21T17:38:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Because by saying he’s crazy, you’re implying that he was acting out of his own idiosyncratic delusions rather than a deeply entrenched, very much alive ideology with many adherents. > > There is no reason to believe he wasn’t in control of his mental faculties when he killed all those people. Maybe he wasn’t, I don’t know. But I’d like to have evidence before concluding he’s nuts. “Nuts” is actually supposed to mean something. No, I think “nuts” is shorthand for “his ideas that lead to is actions are irrational, delusional, and have no connection to reality”. Example of mass shooter that probably is not “nuts”: [http://www.wxyz.com/news/5-people-shot-on-detroits-west-side-one-fatal](http://www.wxyz.com/news/5-people-shot-on-detroits-west-side-one-fatal) Yes, he (they?) shot multiple people. But most probably not out of some bizarre idea that the shootings are leading to some higher strategic purpose. They were probably shooting at someone specific and the others shot were “collateral damage”. You may say that the indifference to collateral damage is a kind of “nuts”, but it is different kind, if it is. Roof’s murders of people that he actually admitted were “nice” to him in the name of some “higher purpose” are “nuts”. It kinda reminds me of that Palestinian woman interviewed in Israel once who regularly came to the Israeli hospital where her little kid was being treated, for free, for some bad disease, and who received nothing but kindness from everyone surrounding her. Yet in the interview she said she hoped the kid [when he grew up would become a suicide bomber](http://www.mrctv.org/videos/palestinian-mother-wants-child-become-martyr). If that’s not “nuts” I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/284 "2015-06-21T17:39:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The younger brother? I think he was talked into it or recruited by his brother. Ah, a member of the defense team, I see. If my brother tried to talk me into exploding pressure cookers packed with shrapnel in a crowd of innocent Boston Marathon onlookers and racers, I would : A) Call the police and B) Kick his ass ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/285 "2015-06-21T19:04:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It kinda reminds me of that Palestinian woman interviewed in Israel once who regularly came to the Israeli hospital where her little kid was being treated, for free, for some bad disease, and who received nothing but kindness from everyone surrounding her. Yet in the interview she said she hoped the kid [when he grew up would become a suicide bomber](http://www.mrctv.org/videos/palestinian-mother-wants-child-become-martyr). If that’s not “nuts” I don’t know what is. That’s not nuts, it is religion. They sometimes difficult to differentiate. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/286 "2015-06-22T01:33:14Z")
I listened to the bond proceedings live including the family statements that quite bravely preached a message of love and forgiveness. That is the only in my life that I have cried from a radio broadcast. The familes and friends of the victims have handled this whole tragedy in the most eloquent and effective way possible. That stated motive for this whole tragedy was for the shooting to start a race war and they did not allow that fire to even start to smolder let alone explode into a conflagration. The murderer failed in his mission completely thanks to the good people of South Carolina and others and that needs to be recognized. Anyone that uses this tragedy for any opportunistic gains, political or otherwise, is completely scum in my eyes and those of most other reasonable people. It is both appropriate and wise that most politicians have recognized it as watershed moment that demands reflection rather than knee-jerk reactions. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/287 "2015-06-22T01:46:32Z")
They held their Church Services today. > **[Emanuel AME Church in Charleston holds first service since deadly shooting](https://www.nydailynews.com/2015/06/22/emanuel-ame-church-in-charleston-holds-first-service-since-deadly-shooting/)** > > The historic church where nine black men and women were killed by a racist mass murderer reopened to stunned members Sunday morning with a sermon of recovery, resilience and healing. The Rev. Norve… These are Strong, devout and godly people. I admire their resilience. > [@](#): > > The historic church where nine black men and women were killed by a racist mass-murderer reopened to stunned members Sunday morning with a sermon of recovery, resilience and healing. > > Pastor Norvel Goff’s voice shook as he read the names of the fallen at the historic Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C. > > But he found strength in God. > > “No evildoer, no demon on hell or earth can close the doors to God’s church,” Goff, a presiding elder of the 7th District AME Church in South Carolina, preached. > > “The doors of Mother Emanuel are open. It sends a message to every demon in hell and on earth. … We are serving notice on every evildoer on earth,” he said to cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/288 "2015-06-22T03:07:24Z")
By the way: question to those who asked “why didn’t Dylann Roof’s friends report his racist rants to the police? Isn’t that non-reporting an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism?” 1. What do you expect the police would have done? 2. Do you think [this woman](http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/home-depot-finds-itself-in-controversy-over-randomly-killing-white-people-comment-by-employee-poser.html/)’s friends should have reported her to the police, and for those that didn’t - is that an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism? (after all, she got 26 likes for that post) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/289 "2015-06-22T11:29:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way: question to those who asked “why didn’t Dylann Roof’s friends report his racist rants to the police? Isn’t that non-reporting an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism?” > > 1. What do you expect the police would have done? Perhaps interviewed Roof, investigated his background and activities (and perhaps his social media presence), and the like. I don’t know if they would have found anything that could have prevented the shooting, but maybe they could have. Or maybe he would have even admitted his plans to the police. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you think [this woman](http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/home-depot-finds-itself-in-controversy-over-randomly-killing-white-people-comment-by-employee-poser.html/)’s friends should have reported her to the police, and for those that didn’t - is that an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism? (after all, she got 26 likes for that post) Obviously, yes. What’s your point? That black people can be racist assholes too? If so, how is that relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/290 "2015-06-22T11:55:58Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Because by saying he’s crazy, you’re implying that he was acting out of his own idiosyncratic delusions rather than a deeply entrenched, very much alive ideology with many adherents. > > There is no reason to believe he wasn’t in control of his mental faculties when he killed all those people. Maybe he wasn’t, I don’t know. But I’d like to have evidence before concluding he’s nuts. “Nuts” is actually supposed to mean something. I’ve seen this repeatedly lately, even taken some heat for calling this guy a psycho. And I think it’s a mistaken argument. There’s gonna be a certain percentage of people (especially young people, especially men) who have a combination of very low empathy and very high aggression. At some point, this combination leads to crazy/pyscho/nuts behavior, viz., seriously planning to kill lots of people. I think that this is less a factor of culture and more a factor of our species. What those psychos do with these urges, however, is HIGHLY culturally dependent. Do they sign up for raids on neighboring villages? Join a terrorist group? Join a gang? Join a vicious police force? Set an orphanage on fire? Play very violent video games? Or do they read a bunch of fucked up racist websites and go shoot up a church full of black people? In South Carolina, where not everyone but enough people are viciously racist, where there are symbols of racism everywhere, the cultural milieu can steer psychos toward that last option. It’s not “either he’s racist or he’s nuts.” Both can be true. Finally, I don’t think anyone is seriously suggesting the guy is criminally insane. “Nuts” and “psycho” are colloquial terms and should not be taken as legal terms of art. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/291 "2015-06-22T13:18:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Obviously, yes. What’s your point? That black people can be racist assholes too? If so, how is that relevant? Obviously, yes what? That is that an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism among blacks? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/292 "2015-06-22T13:20:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Obviously, yes what? That is that an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism among blacks? Obviously yes that is an indicator of tacit support/tolerance of racism among those individuals who clicked “like”. Still don’t know how this is relevant to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/293 "2015-06-22T18:25:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way: question to those who asked “why didn’t Dylann Roof’s friends report his racist rants to the police? Isn’t that non-reporting an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism?” > > 1. What do you expect the police would have done? > > 2. Do you think [this woman](http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/home-depot-finds-itself-in-controversy-over-randomly-killing-white-people-comment-by-employee-poser.html/)’s friends should have reported her to the police, and for those that didn’t - is that an indicator of racist culture and tacit support of racism? (after all, she got 26 likes for that post) And she did get reported, with police followup (of a sort). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/294 "2015-06-22T18:44:09Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > And she did get reported, with police followup (of a sort). … and question 2? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/295 "2015-06-22T18:44:41Z")
Considering the US’s history of systematic white oppression over blacks (slavery, segregation, Jim Crow laws, etc), to counter it with, “oh yeah, they do it too!” is about the stupidest retort I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/296 "2015-06-22T18:49:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Obviously yes that is an indicator of tacit support/tolerance of racism among those individuals who clicked “like”. Still don’t know how this is relevant to the discussion. “Individuals” - sure. How about the “black racist culture” indicator? You know, like that post in the other thread (yes, I mixed up threads, but it is the same topic, really) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18454101&postcount=158](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18454101&postcount=158) “That’s enough tacit support for his plans to suggest a racist culture, in a state that celebrates its racist slave-owning “heritage” by flying a confederate flag at their courthouse and names everything after confederate generals. It also suggests that his friends didn’t disagree with him that much, except on the shooting part, and that it is not that out of the mainstream for white people to talk as Dylann talked.” So - the fact that she got 26 likes on her post - does that show “enough tacit support to suggest a black racist culture” and does it show that “it is not that out of the mainstream for black people to talk like her”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/297 "2015-06-22T18:54:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Individuals” - sure. How about the “black racist culture” indicator? You know, like that post in the other thread (yes, I mixed up threads, but it is the same topic, really) > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18454101&postcount=158](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18454101&postcount=158) > > “That’s enough tacit support for his plans to suggest a racist culture, in a state that celebrates its racist slave-owning “heritage” by flying a confederate flag at their courthouse and names everything after confederate generals. It also suggests that his friends didn’t disagree with him that much, except on the shooting part, and that it is not that out of the mainstream for white people to talk as Dylann talked.” > > So - the fact that she got 26 likes on her post - does that show “enough tacit support to suggest a black racist culture” and does it show that “it is not that out of the mainstream for black people to talk like her”? I don’t know if this one post with 26 likes is enough, but I think it’s very likely that there do exist racist and bigoted cultures within various majority-black communities in the United States, just as there obviously exist racist and bigoted cultures within various majority-white communities in the United States. Why is this relevant to this discussion? The histories of racism against black people and racism against white people in the US are entirely different, and only the first seems relevant in any way, to me, for this discussion about the Charleston shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/298 "2015-06-22T22:03:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why is this relevant to this discussion? The histories of racism against black people and racism against white people in the US are entirely different, and only the first seems relevant in any way, to me, for this discussion about the Charleston shooting. It is relevant to the extent it distracts people from discussing racism against black people. If anyone wanted to have a serious discussion about racism against white folks I would think they would go start a thread about it rather than trying to hijack this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/299 "2015-06-22T22:22:45Z")
[The NC cops who arrested Dylann Roof took him to a Burger King because he was hungry](http://thesource.com/2015/06/21/police-chief-says-dylann-roof-was-taken-to-burger-king-shortly-after-arrest/). Do you think they would have done that for a black mass murder suspect? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823/300 "2015-06-22T22:23:20Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > It is relevant to the extent it distracts people from discussing racism against black people. If anyone wanted to have a serious discussion about racism against white folks I would think they would go start a thread about it rather than trying to hijack this thread. I should believe that it is pertinent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charleston-sc-church-shooting/722823.md?page=16)