# Charlie and the Chocolate Factory **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 10, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504 "2005-08-10T20:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Future\_days](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cab0a1/32.png) [@Future\_days](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Future_days)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/41 "2005-08-13T16:28:21Z")
Anyone else feel the same as me - seen the clips, dont want to see the film? ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/42 "2005-08-14T05:23:38Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > I remember watching it and that particular detail jarring the hell out of me. Wondered if it had been filmed twice (or more) as well. When Charlie picked up the (dollar?) note from the sidewalk, it doesn’t look like any type of money in existence. If you look careful, you can see strange ‘runic’ stuff running around the edges. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/43 "2005-08-14T10:06:55Z")
> [@ExtraKun](#): > > When Charlie picked up the (dollar?) note from the sidewalk, it doesn’t look like any type of money in existence. If you look careful, you can see strange ‘runic’ stuff running around the edges. Nitpick:It was a ten. Admittedly, issued on the Bank of No-Place-That-Exists-On-Earthistan. My memory of Dahl’s illustrations has him looking like Jim Carrey’s version of Count Olaf in _Lemony Snicket’s A Series of Unfortunate Events_. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/44 "2005-08-14T21:36:30Z")
Roald Dahl wanted [Spike Milligan](http://www.spikemilligan.co.uk/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_262382/48.jpg) to play Wonka. That would have been interesting – he certainly had the ability to do the sort of surreal comedic delivery that Wonka demands. I was searching around for Dahl’s description of Wonka, since my mental image of him comes from the illustrations from the first two editions, and I’ve noticed that some editions from the last decade or so depict Wonka as looking more like Johnny Depp’s portrayal, and I’m wondering what the text actually says about his appearance. Anyway, no luck, but I did find something kind of interesting quite by accident: [A .pdf file that describes some of the early drafts of the book.](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=17&url=http%3A//www.roalddahlmuseum.org/uploads/Charlie%2520and%2520the%2520Chocolate%2520fact.pdf&ei=xa__QqmDKau6YJaZ6KcH) I was most surprised to see that Mike Teevee was at one point named “Herpes Trout.” [quote] The seven children in this draft are given distinct characteristics, which Roald Dahl listed on the first page, as follows:[ul][li]Charlie Bucket – a nice boy[_]Augustus Gloop – a greedy boy[_]Marvin Prune – a conceited boy [we never find out what happens to him, as his exit isn’t included in this draft, and he was then dropped][_]Herpes Trout – a television-crazy boy[_]Miranda Mary Piker – a girl who is allowed to DO anything she wants[_]Veruca Salt – a girl who is allowed to HAVE anything she wants[_]Violet Beauregarde – a girl who chews gum all day long.[/ul][/li][/quote] Violet was also earlier named “Violet Strabismus,” which seems like a good name for her, especially if she spent too much time blowing bubbles. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/45 "2005-08-14T23:18:37Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > My memory of Dahl’s illustrations has him looking like Jim Carrey’s version of Count Olaf in _Lemony Snicket’s A Series of Unfortunate Events_. Dahl didn’t illustrate the book. The original American version was illustrated by Joseph Schindelman, and are very realistic-looking. The current edition has illustrations by Quentin Blake which are more cartoony. ---
**Author:** ![Future\_days](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cab0a1/32.png) [@Future\_days](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Future_days)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/46 "2005-08-14T23:33:21Z")
Quentin Blake’s been doing the illustrations for ages, he was doing them when I was in primary school over 20 years ago. So I expect Dahl commissioned him himself. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/47 "2005-08-15T00:21:01Z")
> [@ExtraKun](#): > > When Charlie picked up the (dollar?) note from the sidewalk, it doesn’t look like any type of money in existence. If you look careful, you can see strange ‘runic’ stuff running around the edges. Yeah, but there was so much else that was pretty obviously British. The mention of dollars in payment just stuck out like a turd in a punchbowl. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/48 "2005-08-15T00:44:45Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Charlie is better in the original. He actually does…things. All the new Charlie did was wander around looking doe eyed and being generally useless. This kid is going to run a candy factory? Dunno, that’s been my problem with each of the Harry Potter movies. The kid playing Harry is good at acting impressed by flying cars and magic spells going on about him. But you always get the feeling that the bad guy losing had a lot more to do with “random nifty stuff” happening than because it was Harry was _causing_ the nifty stuff. Yet the books (at least the first) didn’t give such an impression. I suspect that the director is just stuck with whatever he can get out of his stars, particularly when it comes to kids. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/49 "2005-08-15T17:32:45Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I was searching around for Dahl’s description of Wonka, since my mental image of him comes from the illustrations from the first two editions, and I’ve noticed that some editions from the last decade or so depict Wonka as looking more like Johnny Depp’s portrayal, and I’m wondering what the text actually says about his appearance. [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) allows to to search inside a number of their books, so I went into _Charlie_ (that doesn’t sound right) to see what Dahl said Mr. Willy Wonka looked like. > [@](#): > > He had a black top hat on his head. He wore a tail coat made of a beautiful plum-colored velvet. His trousers were bottle green. His gloves were pearly gray. And in one hand he carried a fine gold-topped walking cane. Covering his chin, there was a small neat pointed black beard- a goatee. And his eyes- his eyes were most marvelously bright. They seemed to be sparkling and twinkling at you all the time. The whole face, in fact, was alight with fun and laughter. > _Excerpted from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory by Roald Dahl, page 57. ©1964 by Roald Dahl Nominee, Ltd. Published by the Puffin division of Penguin-Putnam, New York, NY._ ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/50 "2005-08-15T18:06:00Z")
Speaking of the book (not that we really _were_, but I want to tell you guys this and it doesn’t rate its own thread): I saw the movie tie-in version in a store the other day, and idly flipped through it to see what movie pictures they had used. The pictures were all together in a section right in the middle of the book. So right there in the middle of the book is a picture of Wonka and Charlie, captioned something like, “I want you to come and run the chocolate factory!” Way to spoil the book! I’m joking of course. Who will ever read it anyway, now that there’s a movie version? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/51 "2005-08-15T19:15:50Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > **Depp** : Creepy Jackson. I’m still unsure if this shows a massive amount of talent from Depp, or that Michael Jackson is just inherently creepy. Jackson…or a bug when he had on his Michael Jackson dinner-plate shades. Interesting you’d be looking for an either/or in a movie that all but screams: If you can believe it, it is so. I think they did that on purpose so that they could get your subconscious to play along and equate Wonka with someone familiar who’s efforts are highly successful in “The Real World” but who’s cognitive existence in “The Real World” is about nil. Is it so hard to believe that Depp has massive amounts of talent AND Michael Jackson is creepy? Come on, test yourself! ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/52 "2005-08-15T21:00:36Z")
> [@Dung Beetle](#): > > Speaking of the book (not that we really _were_, but I want to tell you guys this and it doesn’t rate its own thread): I saw the movie tie-in version in a store the other day, and idly flipped through it to see what movie pictures they had used. The pictures were all together in a section right in the middle of the book. So right there in the middle of the book is a picture of Wonka and Charlie, captioned something like, “I want you to come and run the chocolate factory!” Way to spoil the book! I’m joking of course. Who will ever read it anyway, now that there’s a movie version? Well, I believe the goal of the photos is to tell the story from beginning to end, as usually is with movie tie-in editions of novels. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/53 "2005-08-15T21:11:42Z")
Thanks for digging that up, **mobo85**. It looks like both Wilder’s and Depp’s portayals are equally faithful to the text, although neither of them resemble the original illustrations, outside of dress. > [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > Jackson…or a bug when he had on his Michael Jackson dinner-plate shades. Okay, seriously, this whole Michael Jackson thing is bugging the hell out of me. I don’t think that the portrayal draws from Michael Jackson at all. Can anyone name a single thing that is objectively cribbed from the Jackson persona, that isn’t indicated in the book? Yes, there were big ol’ goggles. “Michael Jackson dinner-plate shades,” though? What did they more closely resemble? [Michael Jackson’s signature shades](http://www.jacksonland.it/shop/images/sunglass_2.jpg), or [those described and depicted in the book](http://www.larrymudd.com/images/wonka_goggles.jpg)? Willy Wonka is very pale? Well, yeah-- it _has_ been a decade since he’s been outdoors. He’s eccentric? Umm… > [@Roald Dahl](#): > > “He’s barmy!” “He’s nutty!” “He’s screwy!” “He’s batty!” “He’s dippy!” “He’s dotty!” “He’s daffy!” “He’s goofy!” “He’s beany!” “He’s buggy!” “He’s wacky!” “He’s loony!” He’s childlike? He’s a giggle-prone, candy-obsessed character, and has been since before the Jackson Five started recording. He wears outlandish clothing? What? What is it? What speech patterns do they have in common? What mannerisms? Wouldn’t a Michael Jackson-like Wonka do a _little_ more than tap his feet during the Oompa Loompa songs? This reminds me of nothing so much as the folks who claimed that the execrable Jar Jar Binks was a Steppin Fetchit/minstrel show/jamaican lampoon riff, but could never say exactly _why_, and completely ignored his roots as an ill-conceived Harold Lloyd homage. ---
**Author:** ![Future\_days](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cab0a1/32.png) [@Future\_days](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Future_days)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/54 "2005-08-15T22:10:34Z")
He does look a bit like Jackson, in the sense he has a similar face shape, is quite thin, and slightly sinister. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/55 "2005-08-17T08:40:37Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > [A .pdf file that describes some of the early drafts of the book.](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=17&url=http%3A//www.roalddahlmuseum.org/uploads/Charlie%2520and%2520the%2520Chocolate%2520fact.pdf&ei=xa__QqmDKau6YJaZ6KcH) I find some of the earliest drafts more distrubing than the final story. > [@](#): > > Charlie Bucket climbs into a ‘chocolate boy’ mould in the Easter Egg room and is encased in chocolate. He is taken to Mr Wonka’s house as a present for Freddie Wonka (Mr Wonka’s son) and, whilst there, witnesses a burglary. As a reward for helping to catch the burglars, Mr Wonka gives him his own sweet shop, ‘Charlie’s Chocolate Shop’. If not for the premise, this could be a tale from the “Psycho Killer X Series” and could merit a slot on the X-Files. Does this reminds anyone of the “maze” game where the architect leads all the children in the tour to an ultimate, ghastly end? In the second draft, it is mentioned that > [@](#): > > Ghostly voices recite the poems after each child’s exit. The workers in the factory are simply described as ‘white-coated assistants’. Eweek! > [@](#): > > Grandpa Joe emerges as the expert on all things Wonka as he was one of the former workers in the factory. It is quite a pleasant surprise that this turns up in the movie. Was this mentioned in the original story? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/56 "2005-08-17T15:09:53Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Thanks for digging that up, **mobo85**. It looks like both Wilder’s and Depp’s portayals are equally faithful to the text, although neither of them resemble the original illustrations, outside of dress.Okay, seriously, this whole Michael Jackson thing is bugging the hell out of me. I don’t think that the portrayal draws from Michael Jackson at all. Can anyone name a single thing that is objectively cribbed from the Jackson persona, that isn’t indicated in the book? > > Yes, there were big ol’ goggles. “Michael Jackson dinner-plate shades,” though? What did they more closely resemble? [Michael Jackson’s signature shades](http://www.jacksonland.it/shop/images/sunglass_2.jpg), or [those described and depicted in the book](http://www.larrymudd.com/images/wonka_goggles.jpg)? > > Willy Wonka is very pale? Well, yeah-- it _has_ been a decade since he’s been outdoors. > > He’s eccentric? Umm… He’s childlike? He’s a giggle-prone, candy-obsessed character, and has been since before the Jackson Five started recording. > > He wears outlandish clothing? > > What? What is it? What speech patterns do they have in common? What mannerisms? Wouldn’t a Michael Jackson-like Wonka do a _little_ more than tap his feet during the Oompa Loompa songs? > > This reminds me of nothing so much as the folks who claimed that the execrable Jar Jar Binks was a Steppin Fetchit/minstrel show/jamaican lampoon riff, but could never say exactly _why_, and completely ignored his roots as an ill-conceived Harold Lloyd homage. Right. Depp himself has said that he any similarity between him and Michael Jackson was unintentional. Will Keenan’s role as Billy Tripley in the SVU episode “Sick”–now _that_ was a rip on Michael Jackson! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/57 "2005-08-17T19:04:59Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > When Charlie gets the ticket, the people in the candy store offer him money for it - in dollars. > > . In the book, too, he finds a dollar in the snow, even though the author was British. I"m looking forward to it but can wait for the DVD. As far as I can tell Depp is great as Wonka. I love the “Let’s boogie” line that I’ve been hearing in the ads, for some strange reason. The original book’s illustrations of Wonka were suggestive of diminutive Victorian-era millionaire, and that would hardly make sense for a movie set in the current day. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/58 "2005-08-18T07:08:59Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > In the book, too, he finds a dollar in the snow, even though the author was British. The version of the book published for the British market had him finding a fifty-pence piece. (I borrowed a copy from the library recently and just double-checked that.) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/59 "2005-08-18T10:23:24Z")
Maybe it was closer to the book, but I thought it was a poorly-executed movie. Johnny Depp was a flop as Wonka, in my opinion. Yes, Gene Wilder has big shoes to fill. But this new Willy Wonka had none of the assertiveness, the personality, that the old one did. He just felt like a weird guy that happened to be there on the set - he did not, as Gene Wilder did, take control of the film, making it _Wonka’s_ factory, providing a real interesting and entertaining character for the children (in the movie and in the audience) to be amazed by the way I was amazed when I saw the original for the first time (and many times afterwards.) The sets were slick but vapid. Why, in that scene where Augustus Gloop gets sucked town the tube, in the new movie, was there no sense of atmosphere or tension, even though the set probably cost hundreds of thousands of dollars more to create? The whole thing just felt phoned-in. Danny Elfman’s music - UGH! So overproduced. So stupid. The new songs sounded like they had been composed by a middle school music class using the demo tracks on a Casio keyboard. Yes, I know they used the “real” lyrics. I think the old, “fake” ones were better. The oompa-loompas, though, were the absolute, hands-down worst part of the movie. The whole thing screamed “look what we can do with our computer graphics!” Not to mention that having every single O/L’s face be the same guy actually _detracted_, in my opinion, from the idea that there was an organized crew of creatures working at the factory - instead, they just looked like the same guy seen through a kaleidescope, and since your mind registers the one face duplicated again and again, you do not get the impression of their being many different oompa-loompas. I saw only a slick CGI gimmick. Leading up to the factory, the sense of Charlie’s poverty did not seem nearly as tangible as it did in the old movie. What I remember vividly, more than Charlie’s house, was the scene of his mother washing the laundry and Charlie walking through the dark, decrepit streets. It really did feel like they were living in a slum. On the other hand, there is no sense of this dark and decaying environment in then new movie because, again, it’s too slick-looking. I didn’t like this movie at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504/60 "2005-08-18T13:13:40Z")
At the end of the first movie, when Gene Wilder hugs the kid, I tear up. Gene is so kind and fatherly and you just know the bad times are really over at last. The kid is going to a wonderful place with a wonderful person, and the family’s been rescued. At the end of the second movie, the kid’s going to live with this unstable guy that’s been stalking him. I want to call Child Protective Services. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory/316504.md?page=4)