# Charlie Chaplin or Buster Keaton? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 17, 2000, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047 "2000-12-17T19:50:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/21 "2000-12-18T18:40:42Z")
Man, what a Chaplin bashing this thread has become. Here I thought he was a genius who revolutionized movie making. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/22 "2000-12-18T19:37:51Z")
Yep, Ike, you caught me in a direct steal from Milt Gross. Chaplin’s earlier characters were all scofflaws and crooks, which is why Mr. Yifnif was worried about Looey (dot dope) growing opp to become a Cholly Chepmen, yat—i, yi, yi, iss diss a system? Where was I? Oh, Bup—Chaplin was probably the first American comic (see Max Linder, above) to gain huge fame and success onscreen. In no way did he revolutionize film or even film comedy—but he was firstest with the mostest. NOT necessarily bestest. The reason everyone thinks D.W. Griffith was the ONLY great silent director is because he’s the only silent director whose films have—mostly—survived. Who remembers Mickey Neilan or John Collins? 'Cause their films deteriorated! ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/23 "2000-12-18T19:48:22Z")
Keaton is more immediate but yes you would have to say he was a genius. He manged to break out of the chase type silent movie that Harold Lloyd never could. Chaplin’s genius is in the tiny observations, little gestures, being stood in the wrong place at the wrong time so completely unaware, rather like a lost child. Even so I’d still plump for Buster. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/24 "2000-12-18T20:15:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > **Chaplin was probably the first American comic (see Max Linder, above) to gain huge fame and success onscreen.** To take that a step further…Chaplin was not only the first film megastar, but probably the first human being to be _universally recognized._ Anyplace on the planet you could carry a projector and hang up a bedsheet and charge the natives a nickel, Charlie Chaplin appeared…from Burbank to Angkor Wat. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/25 "2000-12-18T20:19:05Z")
The first MAN to be universally recognized, dear heart. Don’t forget about Mary Pickford, who became just as famous, and at exactly the same time. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/26 "2000-12-18T20:46:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > **In no way did he revolutionize film or even film comedy—** Well, that’s a pretty extreme position. He showed that silent comedies were a viable artistic form- not just ten or twenty minutes of pies and sacks of flour, but a way to tell a substantive story. Looking at the Keystone Cops, Mabel Normand, _et al._, I see slapstick. He was the first one to raise the form to something much more thoughtful. I _believe_ The Kid was the first comedy in history as long a ‘normal’ movie. The first feature-length comedy. That’s quite an achievement. Any silent actor after him - Keaton included - owed a great deal to Chaplin. If that’s not revolution of an art form, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/27 "2000-12-18T21:21:43Z")
OK . . . well, I mustn’t let my own dislike of Chaplin’s work overshadow my historical accuracy (she says, buttoning up her tweed Professor suit). Charlie Chaplin WAS very important. But . . . The first U.S. feature-length comedy was “Tillie’s Punctured Romance,” directed by Mack Sennett and starring Marie Dressler (Chaplin and Mabel Normand had supporting roles, but no creative input). Chaplin was the biggest (if not the best) comic film star of the mid-1910s, but others abounded: Roscoe Arbuckle, John Bunny, Flora Finch, Constance Talmadge, Mabel Normand (Keaton and Lloyd didn’t come around till the late '10s). I might add that Mabel directed Chaplin’s earliest films, which he never forgave her for . . . ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/28 "2000-12-18T21:46:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*But . . . The first U.S. feature-length comedy was “Tillie’s Punctured Romance,” directed by Mack Sennett and starring Marie Dressler (Chaplin and Mabel Normand had supporting roles, but no creative input). > \*\* “Tillie’s…” is about 35 minutes long. “The Kid,” IIRC, is about twice that. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/29 "2000-12-18T22:53:49Z")
Chaplin was great; Chaplin was funny; but Keaton was a total genius. “The General” was awesome, in the original sense of the word. “Our Hospitality” is probably the funniest thing I’ve ever seen. And I’m surprised no one’s mentioned “Limelight”, the only film that both Keaton and Chaplin appeared in: Keaton’s brief scene steals the show. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2000, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/30 "2000-12-18T23:26:56Z")
I fenced a bout over this. Winner gets to be right. I won, 5-0. Chaplin all the way, and I got 3 feet of steel backing me up on this one 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/31 "2000-12-19T01:34:16Z")
“Oh, well, he’s just the greatest artist who ever lived” – Mack Sennett, discussing Charlie Chaplin. There is no doubt Keaton was great. And he was rarely topped as a gag man. But Chaplin was #1 (even Keaton admitted that). You may not think much of his early films, but there were years ahead of everyone else.\* Where audienced expected a joke every five minutes in a silent comedy, Chaplin upped the ante by giving a joke every minute – or less. He was the first to realize that comedy was richer if there was some depth of character. He was the first to have a comedy with a sad ending, and his best work can be both screamingly funny and ultimately sad (i.e., “City Lights”). Chaplin aspired to more than just gags, and that gives him the edge. \*This is a common problem of the truly innovative artist. People see the various imitators – who follow his path, but just more slickly – and think the original isn’t up to it. Scott McCloud talks about this in his book _Understanding Comics_, which is probably the best discussion of what an artist – in any genre – does. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/32 "2000-12-19T01:39:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I _believe_ The Kid was the first comedy in history as long a ‘normal’ movie. The first feature-length comedy. That’s quite an achievement. It’s always hard to pick film first, but {i]Tillie’s Punctured Romance\* predated _The Kid_. Chaplin starred in that, but it wasn’t really his movie. Trivia – one member of the cast of _Tillie’s Punctured Romance_ later went on to become a major star and, as of this moment, is still living. Who is he? ---
**Author:** ![caircair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@caircair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caircair)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/33 "2000-12-19T01:52:19Z")
Keaton: Master of the peril gag, fantastic stunt man, consummate craftsman. Hilarious, yes, but his characters are pretty one-note. Chaplin: Master of the sight gag, more all-round character, also a consummate craftsman. Also hilarious, but his movies are more well rounded: “City Lights” made me cry, and who can forget the “Dance of the Oceana Roll” or the famous shoe eating scene from “Gold Rush”? Could Keaton have gotten as many laughs out of a shoelace and leather upper as Chaplin did? My personal favorite, obviously, is Chaplin. Besides being a director/actor/producer, he was also a composer. Remember the song “Smile” (though your heart is aching…)? He wrote that, words, music and all. Kinda sums his personality up, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/34 "2000-12-19T03:06:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zut \* > \*\*I’m surprised no one’s mentioned “Limelight”, the only film that both Keaton and Chaplin appeared in: Keaton’s brief scene steals the show. \*\* Because Limelight is a maudlin, way-too-long movie. If it were truly a movie they were both in, that would have been neat. But Keaton’s in for basically one scene, and I didn’t crack a smile in it - both Chaplin and Keaton were off. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/35 "2000-12-19T03:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*_It’s always hard to pick film first, but {i]Tillie’s Punctured Romance_ predated _The Kid_. Chaplin starred in that, but it wasn’t really his movie. > > Trivia – one member of the cast of _Tillie’s Punctured Romance_ later went on to become a major star and, as of this moment, is still living. Who is he? \*\* As I mentioned before, _The Kid_ is twice as long as _Tillie’s…_. By modern standards, I don’t think _Tillie’s…_ is feature length. If it is, _The Kid_ isn’t Chaplin’s first feature length - something like “Shoulder Arms” or “The Pilgrim” is. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/36 "2000-12-19T03:10:50Z")
Oh - and cool trivia question. I have no idea what the answer is though. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/37 "2000-12-19T14:40:51Z")
Milton Berle. . . . And Max Linder kicks Chaplin butt. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/38 "2000-12-19T17:44:04Z")
But Tillie was considered a feature _at the time it was released_. Hint on the trivia question: the person involved is best known for his television work. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/39 "2000-12-19T17:48:38Z")
Eve got it while I was posting. Note: Uncle Miltie made the claim himself, so it may not be trustworth. He played Charlie and Mabel’s baby in the final scene. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047/40 "2000-12-19T17:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*Note: Uncle Miltie made the claim himself, so it may not be trustworth. He played Charlie and Mabel’s baby in the final scene. \*\* Oh, that Berle is SUCH a fibber. He’s too damn old to have been a baby in 1914. What is he, a hundred and six or something? And I never believed those stories about his schlong, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-chaplin-or-buster-keaton/46047.md?page=3)