# Charlie Hebdo cofounder blames slain editor for provoking attack **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 15, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937 "2015-01-15T22:16:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/1 "2015-01-15T22:16:00Z")
He makes a good point. You can go too far in mocking and provoking people. It doesn’t justify what happened. But common sense tells me its not wise to poke a tiger with a stick. The Pope has expressed similar views. The horrific attack can’t be justified. At the same time, responsible editors & journalists need to carefully consider whether to publish deliberately racist and offensive articles. I’ve seen some of the Charlie cartoons on Google Image. They are repugnant to say the least. They didn’t just draw images of Mohammad. The acts being depicted in those cartoons is way out of line. > **[Charlie Hebdo cofounder blames slain editor for provoking attack](https://www.yahoo.com/news/charlie-hebdo-founder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack-185458716.html)** > > Henri Roussel is criticizing slain editor Stéphane Charbonnier, one of five staff members killed in last week’s shootings, for “overdoing it” by publishing provocative cartoons. > **[Paris attacks: Pope Francis says freedom of speech has limits](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30835625)** > > Pope Francis defends freedom of expression after the Paris attacks but says it has to have limits, as the funerals of four victims are held. > [@](#): > > Henri Roussel, an 80-year-old who contributed to its first issue, in 1970 (when it was known as Hara-Kiri Hebdo), penned a column this week criticizing editor Stéphane Charbonnier, one of five staff members killed in last week’s shootings, for his stubbornness after publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad, which was followed by the 2011 firebombing of the newspaper’s offices. > [@](#): > > Speaking to journalists flying with him to the Philippines, Pope Francis said last week’s attacks were an “aberration”, and such horrific violence in God’s name could not be justified. > > He staunchly defended freedom of expression, but then he said there were limits, especially when people mocked religion. > > “If my good friend Doctor Gasparri [who organises the Pope’s trips] speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched,” he said, throwing a pretend punch at the doctor, who was standing beside him. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/2 "2015-01-15T22:25:53Z")
Henri Roussell has obviously given this tragedy a lot of thought. > [@](#): > > “I believe that we [were] fools who took an unnecessary risk,” Roussel, who writes under the pen name Delfeil de Ton, continued. “That’s it. We think we are invulnerable. For years, decades even, it was a provocation, and then one day the provocation turns against us. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/3 "2015-01-15T22:28:09Z")
One cartoon I’ve seen might be construed as offensive, and I’m not even sure who or what it was depicting(seemed to be a big nosed jew stereotype). The rest aren’t racist in any way, for example a nude muslim woman wearing her burka on the inside, with it sticking out of her genitals. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/4 "2015-01-15T22:37:15Z")
You must of missed the Christian guy getting buggered. Or the naked prophet getting photographed. [http://d16ao1gdhk6qlj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Hebdo-Anti-Christian-Cartoon-10407835\_420827991399921\_9158437998226083692\_n.jpg](http://d16ao1gdhk6qlj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Hebdo-Anti-Christian-Cartoon-10407835_420827991399921_9158437998226083692_n.jpg) [http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/charlie-hebdo-naked-mohamed.jpg](http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/charlie-hebdo-naked-mohamed.jpg) These cartoons remind me of the horrific American cartoons with huge liver lipped blacks, bones in their noses, eating watermelons. Mainstream journalists stopped publishing garbage like that a 100 years ago. It would be unthinkable today to publish that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/5 "2015-01-15T22:50:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > He makes a good point. You can go too far in mocking and provoking people. It doesn’t justify what happened. But common sense tells me its not wise to poke a tiger with a stick. sure, how about those rape victims and their short skirts eh? just asking for it. > [@](#): > > the Pope has expressed similar views. And he can fuck right off. The ancient, celibate, infallible virgin in a dress is of course free to flap his jaws as much as he likes but one can’t help but think he has a vested interested in limiting freedom of speech and freedom of action in very many areas. > [@](#): > > The horrific attack can’t be justified. and yet…and yet… > [@](#): > > At the same time, responsible editors & journalists need to carefully consider whether to publish deliberately racist and offensive articles. whoops, yes, there we go. Do you mean either racist _or_ offensive? is one fine and other not? Or is it just when they are both? And what careful consideration would you think should be taken? The flavours of religion are an ideology, as are political views and yet I’d be pushed to find anyone that thought ridiculing Stalin or the communist manifesto shouldn’t be done. A bad idea is a fucking bad idea. Hateful views and actions should be called out and ridiculed at every opportunity and the nominated wellspring of those views and actions should absolutely be fair game. “religion” can’t be used as defence against objectionable views. > [@](#): > > I’ve seen some of the Charlie cartoons on Google Image. They are repugnant to say the least. They didn’t just draw images of Mohammad. The acts being depicted in those cartoons is way out of line. So link to the cartoons and tell us what you find repugnant. Tell us which ones you’d allow and which you’d ban. The one published this week was certainly not racist and yet by itself would be offensive enough to earn the cartoonist a bullet in the head. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/6 "2015-01-15T22:55:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > You must of missed the Christian guy getting buggered. Or the naked prophet getting photographed. > > [http://d16ao1gdhk6qlj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Hebdo-Anti-Christian-Cartoon-10407835\_420827991399921\_9158437998226083692\_n.jpg](http://d16ao1gdhk6qlj.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Hebdo-Anti-Christian-Cartoon-10407835_420827991399921_9158437998226083692_n.jpg) > [http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/charlie-hebdo-naked-mohamed.jpg](http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/charlie-hebdo-naked-mohamed.jpg) > > These cartoons remind me of the horrific American cartoons with huge liver lipped blacks, bones in their noses, eating watermelons. Mainstream journalists stopped publishing garbage like that a 100 years ago. It would be unthinkable today to publish that stuff. You lost me. Which of the two linked cartoons are racist? Which incites hatred or otherwise targets the innocents? They both seem to be aiming at the most powerful figures in the respective religions plus one arsehole film director. Poor examples that do nothing for your point. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/7 "2015-01-15T22:57:48Z")
I’m not suggesting anything be banned. I believe in a free press. It’s the Editors job to \*responsibly \*decide what to publish. That in fact is his most important duty as editor. Is the story true, unbiased, fair? We already do that for race. Religions and religious leaders deserve the same level of respect by the press. Editors should treat religion exactly like they would a racial topic. Report the story, but don’t mock the subject. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/8 "2015-01-15T23:01:49Z")
Well, you do have to recognize that right there in the cover under the “CHARLIE HEBDO” title, the tagline reads _“Journal Irresponsable”_. Does what it says on the tin, should shock nobody. But at the same time as we defend Charlie’s right to give the world in-your-face, suck-on-it shock-satire, we should as well take care to not go all reverse-PC on it and acknowledge that it is an observation of fact that it IS at times crass and rude and meant to piss people off and show they do not in the least respect the idea being portrayed. That is entirely separate from how we believe that among civilized men when someone does _that_ you should object nonviolently and seek nonviolent remedies, and if there are none, just plain DNFTT if that’s how you feel. And why do I get the feeling there’s going to be a disparaging cartoon of Francis’ mom coming up in the near future?😉 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/9 "2015-01-15T23:09:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You lost me. Which of the two linked cartoons are racist? Which incites hatred or otherwise targets the innocents? They both seem to be aiming at the most powerful figures in the respective religions plus one arsehole film director. Poor examples that do nothing for your point. You are aware [most major news organizations are not showing the Charlie cartoons](http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/07/media/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-media-mohammed-cartoons/)? There’s a reason. It’s because many are offensive and degrading to a large segment of the population. They may not be racist in the most traditional sense. But Muslims represent over a billion people. Why is mocking them ok and mocking blacks is not? You can’t mock Asian or Jewish stereotypical features either. Why are Muslims fair game? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/10 "2015-01-15T23:25:01Z")
Why did you call the cartoons racist? I would think that it’s easy to understand the difference between a voluntarily-held belief and skin color. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/11 "2015-01-15T23:25:45Z")
I think Henri Roussell’s point is valid. As cofounder of Charlie he understands the right to publish satire. He’s written it much of his life. He’s reminding everyone that there’s always a line that shouldn’t be crossed. Reading between the lines. Do you get the impression Henri Roussell had this discussion with editor Stéphane Charbonnier? He probably warned Charbonnier to be more responsible after the bombing. It was clear even then that innocent lives were being put in danger. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Why did you call the cartoons racist? Attacking the beliefs of over a billion Muslim people is racist. They are a group just like Asians, Blacks, Catholics or any other group. What is being mocked or denigrated is the group as a whole. Assumptions are being made because someone is part of that group. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/12 "2015-01-15T23:32:41Z")
There is an ideal world and there is the one in which we live. In the world we live in, if you mock certain kinds of people enough, they will eventually react with violence. It’s not nice or right, but it is a fact. There are no easy solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/13 "2015-01-15T23:34:05Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Attacking the beliefs of over a billion Muslim people is racist. They are a group just like Asians, Blacks, Catholics or any other group. What is being mocked or denigrated is the group as a whole. Assumptions are being made because someone is part of that group. You know what a race is, right? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/14 "2015-01-15T23:45:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Attacking the beliefs of over a billion Muslim people is racist. They are a group just like Asians, Blacks, Catholics or any other group. What is being mocked or denigrated is the group as a whole. Assumptions are being made because someone is part of that group. Er that isn’t what racism is. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/15 "2015-01-15T23:45:29Z")
Race is more than skin color or what part of the world your ancestors came from. Culture and religion are a factor too. Racism can extend across any large group of people that are mocked or persecuted. Race is also a term science uses to categorize people by ancestry. I’m not using it in that limited scientific definition… If you prefer then lets just call the Charlie cartoons deeply offensive to many people. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/16 "2015-01-15T23:51:13Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Race is more than skin color or what part of the world your ancestors came from. Culture and religion are a factor too. Racism can extend across any large group of people that are mocked or persecuted. > > Race is also a term science uses to categorize people by ancestry. I’m not using it in that limited scientific definition. Sure, you can use the expanded definition. So, are Christians a race? If I draw a cartoon of Jesus wearing a bikini, is that racist? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/17 "2015-01-15T23:59:37Z")
Slightly Offensive pictures of Jesus don’t upset people the same way. I guess if mocking drawings were repeatedly published, for years that it could become a big issue. Any joke can be taken so far that people get angry. There are persecuted Christian groups in some Muslim countries. Iraq had a Christian minority that had lived there for hundreds of years. They’ve been killed, churches burned and the survivors are fleeing if they can. Yeah, thats because of racist views. Radical Muslim fundamentalists consider Christians infidels. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/18 "2015-01-16T00:01:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Race is more than skin color or what part of the world your ancestors came from. Culture and religion are a factor too. Racism can extend across any large group of people that are mocked or persecuted. > > Race is also a term science uses to categorize people by ancestry. I’m not using it in that limited scientific definition… > > If you prefer then lets just call the Charlie cartoons deeply offensive to many people. Yes I will agree with you that many, even most of the cartoons are trying to be offensive to muslim fundies. But do you know the most fundie of muslims believe any depiction of ANY sentient being is forbidden? > **[Aniconism in Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Islam)** > > In some forms of Islamic art, aniconism (the avoidance of images of sentient beings) stems in part from the prohibition of idolatry and in part from the belief that the creation of living forms is God's prerogative. > The Quran itself does not prohibit visual representation of any living being. The hadith collection of Sahih Bukhari explicitly prohibits the making of images of living beings, challenging painters to "breathe life" into their images and threatening them with punishment on the Day of... > [@](#): > > but the depiction of all humans and animals is discouraged in the hadith and by the long tradition of Islamic authorities, especially Sunni ones. This has led to Islamic art being dominated by Islamic geometric patterns, calligraphy and the barely representational foliage patterns of the arabesque; but figurative art still has a strong tradition, especially on a small scale in private works for the home or palace. The proliferation of photographic and filmed images today has led to controversy, with some religious authorities stating, for example, that all television is un-Islamic; but this is not a widely held position. This would basically mean anything is offensive to some religious nut somewhere. I mean should we start honoring that?! ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/19 "2015-01-16T00:05:04Z")
So, Jesus in a bikini = not racist, but Mohamed in a bikini = racist. I just want to make sure I understand this definition of racism that you made up just now. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937/20 "2015-01-16T00:05:38Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Slightly Offensive pictures of Jesus don’t upset people the same way. I guess if mocking drawings were repeatedly published, for years that it could become a big issue. Any joke can be taken so far that people get angry. > > There are persecuted Christian groups in some Muslim countries. Iraq had a Christian minority that had lived there for hundreds of years. They’ve been killed, churches burned and the survivors are fleeing if they can. Yeah, thats because of racist views. Radical Muslim fundamentalists consider Christians infidels. That isn’t racism, it is religious persecution. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-cofounder-blames-slain-editor-for-provoking-attack/709937.md?page=2)