# Charlie Hebdo, racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482 "2015-01-10T16:51:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/21 "2015-01-12T02:05:10Z")
By the way, how would you go about caricaturing a bearded, turbaned, 6th century Middle Easterner? Is there any way to do it without being accused of “racism?” So should Muhammad therefore just be exempt from caricature? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/22 "2015-01-12T05:58:48Z")
Well, first of all, Middle Easterners are not generally turbaned (that would be Sikhs and more South Asian you are thinking of). So if you want to stop caricaturing, that’d be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/23 "2015-01-12T11:59:48Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > And did they murder because the images were “racist,” or because the images insulted The Prophet? IMO : Both. Neither. It’s complicated™. Of course, since they’re all dead and didn’t leave a manifesto their precise motivations, in stark similarity with their victims, are up in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/24 "2015-01-12T14:04:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > IMO : Both. Neither. It’s complicated™. > > Of course, since they’re all dead and didn’t leave a manifesto their precise motivations, in stark similarity with their victims, are up in the air. They did shout “The Prophet is avenged!” or something along those lines, so yes, they did give us some evidence of their motivation. (N.B., they did _not_ shout “Down with racism!”) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/25 "2015-01-12T14:10:16Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > They did shout “The Prophet is avenged!” or something along those lines, so yes, they did give us some evidence of their motivation. > > (N.B., they did _not_ shout “Down with racism!”) Of course they did. But the question of _why_ they shouted this is the interesting, complicated, downright messy bit. Why they personally felt driven to do this, why they felt like it was a thing worth doing (and surrendering their lives in the process), and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/26 "2015-01-12T14:14:52Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Well, first of all, Middle Easterners are not generally turbaned… [They aren’t?](http://media.cleveland.com/world_impact/photo/osama-bin-laden-1998jpg-0d53e0ea14cb1e4d.jpg) But I get what you’re saying. Most _modern_ Middle Easterners don’t wear turbans. _Modern._ Middle Easterners. We are talking about a 6th century Middle Easterner, though. Google up images of [“Muhammad prophet”](https://www.google.com/search?q=muhammad&biw=1366&bih=643&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=AdWzVJDVA8aWNomngeAK&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=muhammad+prophet&imgdii=_) and see if any turbaned gentlemen appear. So I resubmit my question: Is Muhammad to be exempted from caricature? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/27 "2015-01-12T14:20:14Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > We are talking about a 6th century Middle Easterner, though. Google up images of [“Muhammad prophet”](https://www.google.com/search?q=muhammad&biw=1366&bih=643&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=AdWzVJDVA8aWNomngeAK&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=muhammad+prophet&imgdii=_) and see if any turbaned > gentlemen appear. Even better, look for Muhammad’s selfies. They’re out there. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/28 "2015-01-12T14:21:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Of course they did. But the question of _why_ they shouted this is the interesting, complicated, downright messy bit. Why they personally felt driven to do this, why they felt like it was a thing worth doing (and surrendering their lives in the process), and so forth. Well, put it this way: I have some pretty good evidence they were upset that Muhammad was being ridiculed. I don’t see _any_ evidence that they were upset that depictions in the magazine were “racist.” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/29 "2015-01-12T14:24:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Even better, look for Muhammad’s selfies. They’re out there. Link them. I’m curious now. But you didn’t answer my question: Is Muhammad exempt from caricature? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/30 "2015-01-12T14:36:22Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Well, put it this way: I have some pretty good evidence they were upset that Muhammad was being ridiculed. > > I don’t see _any_ evidence that they were upset that depictions in the magazine were “racist.” Perhaps what you lack is cultural context. I’ll clue you in : North African Arab immigrants have a difficult relationship with France at the best of times. Because we kind of tortured them, lied to them, murdered them, treat their children as second rate citizens… But I mean how light-triggered can these towelhea… totally equal French citizen be, am I right ? TL;DR;DU : racism and islam-bashing aren’t divorced in France. In fact they’ve been eloping over the past 10 years since the Old Guard of the colonialism nostalgists have been bolstered and reinforced by the pants-shitting crowd. Since then, many rabid racists have hidden under the shield of “criticizing Islam” to shit on and/or persecute the “bougnoules” (that would be “brownies” to you). And by “criticizing” I mean assault, I mean tagging and firebombing mosques, I mean firing people, I mean forcefully ripping headscarves away from women and, YES, I mean klling random Arabs once in a while. Who of course don’t make headlines, because it’s just an individual crime committed by individual people (or individual cops) and in no way shape or form is indicative of any trend. So there. But them Muslims be crazy, \*\*that \*\*you should know ! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/31 "2015-01-12T14:45:56Z")
I’m aware of the history, but thank you for the condescension. I do not get the impression that _Charlie Hebdo_ in any way represented “the Old Guard.” I gather that the publication had an anti-authoritarian/anarchist bent. Am I wrong? And you still haven’t answered my question. Is Muhammad to be exempted from caricature when religious figures are being skewered? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/32 "2015-01-12T14:55:01Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I’m aware of the history, but thank you for the condescension. Ain’t no “history” about it. It happens every day. > [@](#): > > I do not get the impression that _Charlie Hebdo_ in any way represented “the Old Guard.” I gather that the publication had an anti-authoritarian/anarchist bent. Am I wrong? That’s the funny (if you’re into tragic humor) bit. Charlie Hebdo once stood against _everything_ the Old Guard stood for. But in pursuing their own ideas, yet twisting or ignoring some significant data points in their analysis, they reached the same faulty conclusions and message. Which in turn got appropriated by their primary enemies. I’ll say it again in case this hasn’t sunk in : Far-right papers and websites, who in every other respect consistently and even aggressively (in the strictest, baseball-bat-to-the-knees sense of the word) stood against the _Charlie Hebdo_ crowd, would copy/paste their worst Islam-bashing cartoons. Which IMO should have been enough to make them pause for a bit, if the subscriber bleed wasn’t enough of a hint. > [@](#): > > And you still haven’t answered my question. Is Muhammad to be exempted from caricature when religious figures are being skewered? No. Yes. It’s complicated ™. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/33 "2015-01-12T15:00:13Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No. Yes. It’s complicated ™. I’ll need more than that, I think. That’s not really an answer. [Daily Kos has some interesting cartoons from the pages of Charlie Hebdo](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/11/1357057/-The-Charlie-Hebdo-cartoons-no-one-is-showing-you?detail=facebook#). . ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/34 "2015-01-12T15:14:05Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I’ll need more than that, I think. That’s not really an answer. You noticed ? (also, your cite shows only cartoons by Cabu. Who was a genuinely good guy. He always was. I’ve said as much, in these threads an elsewhere - I’ve always admired the guy, and not just for his work. He was a good person, a good father too. When his son was diagnosed with AIDS caused by IV drug use, he supported him - and that was in the early 90s, back when The Bug was the mark of Faggot Satan. He’s always been a good guy. And his cartoons, even those taking shots at Islam, were never demeaning, petty, or hateful. In recent \*Charlie \*years, he was an exception. Or a relic, perhaps. Fuck, what am I even glurging about, just rest in peaceful oblivion you hairy bastard, will you ?) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/35 "2015-01-12T15:43:03Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > [They aren’t?](http://media.cleveland.com/world_impact/photo/osama-bin-laden-1998jpg-0d53e0ea14cb1e4d.jpg) > > But I get what you’re saying. Most _modern_ Middle Easterners don’t wear turbans. _Modern._ Middle Easterners. > > We are talking about a 6th century Middle Easterner, though. Google up images of [“Muhammad prophet”](https://www.google.com/search?q=muhammad&biw=1366&bih=643&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=AdWzVJDVA8aWNomngeAK&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=muhammad+prophet&imgdii=_) and see if any turbaned gentlemen appear. > > So I resubmit my question: Is Muhammad to be exempted from caricature? Muhammed likely wore an imama, not a turban. It looks like this: [https://www.google.com/search?q='Imama&es\_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=CIk3\_xvTmjK\_lM%253A%253Bc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%25252Fheaddress%25252Fimama.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=CIk3\_xvTmjK\_lM%253A%252Cc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%252C\_&usg=\_\_A0bwAJzQnFgpRq8KpSfTyPRAFE4%3D&biw=1317&bih=897&ved=0CDMQyjc&ei=p-qzVOWAK7PisAT\_hIG4Cg#tbm=isch&q=Imama&imgdii=\_&imgrc=CIk3\_xvTmjK\_lM%253A%3Bc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%252Fheaddress%252Fheaddress\_picture%252Fimama.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%252Fheaddress%252Fimama.htm%3B1280%3B960](https://www.google.com/search?q=%27Imama&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=CIk3_xvTmjK_lM%253A%253Bc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%25252Fheaddress%25252Fimama.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=CIk3_xvTmjK_lM%253A%252Cc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%252C_&usg=__A0bwAJzQnFgpRq8KpSfTyPRAFE4%3D&biw=1317&bih=897&ved=0CDMQyjc&ei=p-qzVOWAK7PisAT_hIG4Cg#tbm=isch&q=Imama&imgdii=_&imgrc=CIk3_xvTmjK_lM%253A%3Bc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%252Fheaddress%252Fheaddress_picture%252Fimama.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%252Fheaddress%252Fimama.htm%3B1280%3B960) Which, btw, is similar to what bin Laden is wearing in that picture there. They are NOT the same thing (it’d be like calling a fedora a bowler). Regardless, the caricatures are showing Muhammed wearing a Sikh like turban, which definitely isn’t correct. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/36 "2015-01-12T15:51:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No. Yes. It’s complicated ™. whoah, hang on. There is only a single word needed in response to the original question and that word is no! No exemption needed or expected. Are you seriously suggesting that a single religious figure should have special consideration above others? If so why? If not then why use the words above? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/37 "2015-01-12T16:15:05Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Muhammed likely wore an imama, not a turban. It looks like this: > > ['Imama - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=%27Imama&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=CIk3_xvTmjK_lM%253A%253Bc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%25252Fheaddress%25252Fimama.htm&source=iu&pf=m&fir=CIk3_xvTmjK_lM%253A%252Cc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%252C_&usg=__A0bwAJzQnFgpRq8KpSfTyPRAFE4%3D&biw=1317&bih=897&ved=0CDMQyjc&ei=p-qzVOWAK7PisAT_hIG4Cg#tbm=isch&q=Imama&imgdii=_&imgrc=CIk3_xvTmjK_lM%253A%3Bc6NZGh9ErB6Y4M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%252Fheaddress%252Fheaddress_picture%252Fimama.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fuksura.web.fc2.com%252Fheaddress%252Fimama.htm%3B1280%3B960) > > Which, btw, is similar to what bin Laden is wearing in that picture there. They are NOT the same thing (it’d be like calling a fedora a bowler). Regardless, the caricatures are showing Muhammed wearing a Sikh like turban, which definitely isn’t correct. In the idiom of my people, you are trying to pick the fly specks out of the pepper. I think most people in the West see a head wrap and don’t make such fine distinctions. And these cartoons are for a Western audience. Exaggerating the commonly-perceived aspects of a subject is part of caricature. Jesus may not have had long hair. So does that mean a cartoonist should depict Jesus with short hair for the sake of historical accuracy, or should he instead use an image that his audience would recognize? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/38 "2015-01-12T16:46:31Z")
Getting back to the OP: [On not understanding “Charlie:” Why many smart people are getting it wrong](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/11/1356945/-On-not-understanding-Charlie-Why-many-smart-people-are-getting-it-wrong?detail=facebook) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/39 "2015-01-12T17:09:49Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > In the idiom of my people, you are trying to pick the fly specks out of the pepper. I think most people in the West see a head wrap and don’t make such fine distinctions. And these cartoons are for a Western audience. Exaggerating the commonly-perceived aspects of a subject is part of caricature. > > Jesus may not have had long hair. So does that mean a cartoonist should depict Jesus with short hair for the sake of historical accuracy, or should he instead use an image that his audience would recognize? And that’s the problem with caricature, isn’t it? Propagation of falsehoods because people in other areas “don’t make such fine distinctions”. Things like this, of course, get Sikh people targeted after Wahhabist terror attacks. And, you know, black folk as monkeys is also a form of caricature (that Charlie Hebdo has used, of course), but we recognize the inherent problems with that - even if it is to be used as satire. Likewise with the “Jewish hook-nose”. And of course, “Aryan Jesus” caricatures have caused a ridiculous amount of problems. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482/40 "2015-01-12T17:28:33Z")
So, **ISiddiqui** , should Muhammad be exempt from caricature, when religious figures are being lampooned? . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlie-hebdo-racist/709482.md?page=3)