# Charlottesville: can both sides be blamed for violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 16, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787 "2017-08-16T12:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/41 "2017-08-16T17:08:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Put it this way: If the Nazis had been there but the Antifa folks had stayed home, would there be violence? If the Antifa folks had been there but the Nazis had stayed home, would there be violence? Has Antifa ever been violent without Nazis around? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/42 "2017-08-16T17:28:31Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Charlottesville escalated into violence because the alt left showed up in force to try and shut down a legal demonstration. > > There were hotheads on both sides. Looking for a fight and they found it. > > The alt left showed up wanting to provoke a fight and that’s what they got. They were part of the same groups out marching just before the inauguration because they were upset Trump won. > > The lunatic that drove the car into the crowd doesn’t represent all of the people marching that day. > > The alt left over reacted by directly confronting and trying to interfere with a lawful demonstration. > > The extreme right has marched many times throughout my life. It’s distasteful but the world didn’t come to an end. It’s better to ignore them. > They are a fringe group that doesn’t deserve public attention. What the hell is the “alt-left”? I’ve heard of the alt-right, since there are lots of people that identify themselves as alt-right. I don’t know anyone who identifies themselves as “alt-left”. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/43 "2017-08-16T17:36:06Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Of course both sides should be blamed for the violence - apart from the horrendous car attack that is the fault of the driver of the car. (snip) Yes, the skinhead, neo-Nazi position is reprehensible, **but it is established that they have a first amendment right to gather and be despicable. [And they are the ones who secured the government permit to assemble**, correct?] > [@Orwell](#): > > You don’t think the people “showing up” aren’t there to start shit? Wouldn’t it be better to simply stay at home and let the Nazis parade down an empty street? **Or get your own permit and gather at a location some distance away**? While there may not be equivalence from any moral standpoint, there sure seems to be shared blame when a reactionary group (reacting to a planned event) **shows up at an announced event with the sole purpose of causing trouble**. Again, just because you agree with one side doesn’t make them blameless when violence and property damage ensue. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Charlottesville escalated into violence **because the alt left showed up in force to try and shut down a legal demonstration.** > > There were hotheads on both sides. Looking for a fight and they found it. > > **The alt left showed up wanting to provoke a fight and that’s what they got.** They were part of the same groups out marching just before the inauguration because they were upset Trump won. > > The lunatic that drove the car into the crowd doesn’t represent all of the people marching that day. > > The alt left over reacted by directly confronting and\*\* trying to interfere with a lawful demonstration. > \*\* > The extreme right has marched many times throughout my life. It’s distasteful but the world didn’t come to an end. It’s better to ignore them. > They are a fringe group that doesn’t deserve public attention. [Charlottesville Grants 2 Permits for Counterprotests of Unite the Right Rally](http://www.nbc29.com/story/36099395/city-of-charlottesville-grants-two-permits-for-counterprotests-of-unite-the-right) - Counter protesters had every legal right to be there and many were injured (one fatally) exercising this right. Frankly, it’s one thing to stand by while NAZ-light are marching, but its quite another to actively condemn those who are out protesting these neo-Klan wannabes. The counter protesters are bleeding heroes. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/44 "2017-08-16T17:37:05Z")
Alt left, far left whatever you want to call them. They are much more extreme then the Left. They are hardly peaceful. I’m sure you’re aware of the WTO protests. The one in Seattle in 1999 was an all out war zone. Occupy Wall Street. The far left has been marching about one thing or another for as long as I can remember. They are just as fanatical and dangerous as the far right groups. Extremists, on either side, are always a cause for concern. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/45 "2017-08-16T17:43:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The extreme right has marched many times throughout my life. It’s distasteful but the world didn’t come to an end. It’s better to ignore them. > They are a fringe group that doesn’t deserve public attention. This is the “sun will rise tomorrow because it’s risen every day 'til now” argument from induction. And induction usually works fine, don’t get me wrong! (Especially when there are reasons outside of induction that things will keep working.) It might well work in this case, too. Everything might turn out okay – or 90% okay, or 50%, or … But: 1. the aims of the extreme right are not just protest and making their points of view public. Sure, they would like to convince people to join their cause and win power through democratic means – because, hey, power – but they don’t really care how they get their power, and have no commitment to allowing democracy to continue once they get power. 1a) this whole strategy should look very familiar. 2. I’m more complacent than many – and less complacent than many, too – when looking at our current political situation. But I’m damn sure not complacent, full stop. I’d prefer that the open racists and fascists were met with non-violence, because that’s what I think is smart; but if my allies want to take it to the level of self-defense, and can live with and justify their actions, I will give their choices the respect they deserve, depending on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/46 "2017-08-16T17:47:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They are just as fanatical and dangerous as the far right groups. Extremists, on either side, are always a cause for concern. This is totally ridiculous, and the facts say otherwise. [https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly](https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly) 1992-2017, terrorism deaths by ideology in the US: Islamist - 3,085 Nationalist and Right Wing - 219 Left Wing - 23 Further, it’s just crazy to put anti-racism into the same bucket as racism. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/47 "2017-08-16T17:48:10Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > No, because the context matters. The Antifa people – and many non-violent anti fascists, too – view the fascists as a physical threat. They don’t see this as a pure “speech” issue. So, just because you vehemently disagree with someone, that gives you the right to escalate to violence? Make the first aggressive move? It’s a speech issue until someone acts violent. > [@](#): > > And, as I said, looking at our current President, I can’t say I blame them. Do you? Do you trust his commitment to freedom of speech when that speech attacks him? No, I don’t trust Trump one iota. He is an authoritarian with little regard for personal and constitutional rights. But that doesn’t dictate who I can assault. Are you saying who is president at a given time is justification for violence? ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/48 "2017-08-16T17:53:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What the hell is the “alt-left”? I’ve heard of the alt-right, since there are lots of people that identify themselves as alt-right. I don’t know anyone who identifies themselves as “alt-left”. It’s been used – in the past – by center-left people on Twitter etc. to describe the left factions that engage in heavy criticism of the Democratic Party. The DSA, Chapo, etc. In other words, Bernie Sanders dead-enders, especially those that take an “us-or-them” approach to leftish politics. I haven’t seen it used to describe Antifa, Black Bloc, and other “put your bodies on the line” groups before this weekend. I think we are seeing something analogous to the transformation of “fake news” from something useful and descriptive to a mere slur. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/49 "2017-08-16T17:58:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is totally ridiculous, and the facts say otherwise. [https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly](https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly) > > 1992-2017, terrorism deaths by ideology in the US: > > Islamist - 3,085 > > Nationalist and Right Wing - 219 > > Left Wing - 23 > > Further, it’s just crazy to put anti-racism into the same bucket as racism. The FBI has been watching and infiltrating the alt right fringe groups for decades. The KKK was bankrupted in the 80’s? by several lawsuits. The Southern Poverty Law Center has used the courts very effectively against hate groups. These groups may be extremely distasteful but they aren’t a threat. They were content to vent their hate within their own group. That all changed when it became politically popular to tear down a bunch of hundred year old statues that had largely been forgotten. Now we’ve artificially created something the alt right can get excited about. It’s probably boosted their membership and their fund raising. We’re probably going to see more violent clashes between the extreme left and right. There’s so many hotheads out there. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/50 "2017-08-16T18:01:35Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The FBI has been watching and infiltrating the alt right fringe groups for decades. > > These groups may be extremely distasteful but they aren’t a threat. They were content to vent their hate within their own group. They aren’t a threat? Based on what? They’ve killed lots of people. Is that not enough of a threat? I’m not saying they’re an existential threat to the existence of our country, but right wing terrorism is second only to Islamic extremist terrorism in death and destruction. > [@](#): > > That all changed when it became politically popular to tear down a bunch of hundred year old statues that had largely been forgotten. > > Now we’ve artificially created something the alt right can get excited about. It’s probably boosted their membership. > > We’re probably going to see more violent clashes between the extreme left and right. > > There’s so many hotheads out there. Bullshit victim blaming. The KKK had various resurgences any time there was the possibility of the improvement of the rights of black people. That doesn’t excuse them in any way shape or form, and it doesn’t place any of the blame on those seeking civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/51 "2017-08-16T18:05:58Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > So, just because you vehemently disagree with someone, that gives you the right to escalate to violence? Make the first aggressive move? It’s a speech issue until someone acts violent. If one’s not a straight cis white man (like me), the violent actions against people like you have been going on for a long time. It’s cute and clever to pretend that torchlight rallies chanting “Jew will not replace us!” and “Blood and Soil!” are “just speech.” A lot harder to do when there’s a sympathizer in the White House. I’m not just taking sides here because I “vehemently disagree” – there’s a lot of history to think about. And having an “authoritarian” in the White House, who’s taking sides in this fight, makes me a whole lot more sympathetic to people who do wrong-headed anti-fascist actions than fascists. If you think this is a time to stay neutral, that’s up to you. I’ll defend your right to do so. But don’t try to tell me this is an issue with two equal sides. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/52 "2017-08-16T18:10:46Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > So, just because you vehemently disagree with someone, that gives you the right to escalate to violence? Make the first aggressive move? It’s a speech issue until someone acts violent. I also take issue with describing the actions of Antifa as “escalating.” I’d describe them as “responding.” Based on what I’ve seen of the events of this weekend in Charlottesville. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/53 "2017-08-16T18:21:44Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > [Charlottesville Grants 2 Permits for Counterprotests of Unite the Right Rally](http://www.nbc29.com/story/36099395/city-of-charlottesville-grants-two-permits-for-counterprotests-of-unite-the-right) - Counter protesters had every legal right to be there and many were injured (one fatally) exercising this right. They had permits to be in McGuffey and Jackson/Justice park. Not Lee/Emancipation Park. Kessler originally got a legal permit to have a 400-person rally, when word got out to the various alt-right groups it became apparent it was going to be a lot bigger than that. So the city tried to move the rally to much larger McIntire Park. Kessler sued over that decision because they wanted to have a rally at the Lee statue that is generating so much controversy. The ACLU was on Kessler’s side on this matter, I supposed because it was a freedom of speech issue. A federal judge ruled that the rally could stay in Lee/Emancipation park. This may not have been a good decision, and I believe that woefully inadequate police response led to people beating on each other for several hours. They were probably surprised by how many people showed up, but still there was a general breakdown of order for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/54 "2017-08-16T18:27:41Z")
No. One side’s intrinsic position implies violence on fellow citizens. Resisting that is a moral act not a violent one. That is the macro argument. In the micro argument of this exact situation, it was a White Supremacists who chose to get in his car and run down the counter protesters. He wanted to kill all of them and ended up murdering one of them. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/55 "2017-08-16T18:38:54Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That all changed when it became politically popular to tear down a bunch of hundred year old statues that had largely been forgotten. The UVa students and alumni, black and white, have hardly forgotten those statues or what they stand for. In fact, the groundswell support for tearing down monuments to racist traitors is itself proof that they were far from a mere footnote in present society. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/56 "2017-08-16T18:40:58Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > No. One side’s intrinsic position implies violence on fellow citizens. Resisting that is a moral act not a violent one. That is the macro argument. > > In the micro argument of this exact situation, it was a White Supremacists who chose to get in his car and run down the counter protesters. He wanted to kill all of them and ended up murdering one of them. Resisting violent thoughts with actual violence is where things become illegal. How could he have even known who he was running into? It was a chaotic situation with big crowds, he could have just as easily been running over alt-right or innocent pedestrians. This was over a block away from where either of the rallies were supposed to be held. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/57 "2017-08-16T18:43:28Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > No. One side’s intrinsic position implies violence on fellow citizens. Resisting that is a moral act not a violent one. That is the macro argument. > > In the micro argument of this exact situation, it was a White Supremacists who chose to get in his car and run down the counter protesters. He wanted to kill all of them and ended up murdering one of them. Your first statement is an illogical, unsupported opinion, certainly not a legal or constitutional argument. Holding a rally or protest, for whatever reason, is not tantamount to assault. And “implied violence” is protected speech, I believe. Saying “all of these skinhead Nazis should be killed” is protected speech. Actually attempting to do it is another matter. I don’t think anybody is arguing against your second paragraph. That was clearly murder and attempted murder, no question. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/58 "2017-08-16T18:44:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s obvious that not 100% of the violence came from the Nazis. > > Some violence came from the people who were against the Nazis. > > The thing is. . . in criminal law, in criminal sentencing, we have a concept of aggravating and mitigating factors. An aggravating factor is a factual circumstance that can legitimately be considered as justifying a harsher sentence. A mitigating factor is one that justifies a lighter sentence. > > So my informal, non-legal comment by analogy is that violence to advance Nazi causes is an aggravating factor. It makes the violence more despicable. > > And violence to oppose Nazi causes: still not legal, sure, but a hell of a lot more understandable than some random act. A mitigating factor. > > Not equal, in other words. Did both sides have a permit for that space? I consider this to be instigated by the group who applied for the permit last. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/59 "2017-08-16T18:46:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The antifa side has been accused of having clubs and sticks. > > We have photographic evidence that the alt-right Nazis and KKK showed up with body armor, shields, and guns. > > I’m more inclined to blame the guys with armor and guns at an allegedly “peaceful” rally. I mean, who the hell shows up to a “peaceful” gathering armed for bear? The Nazis/KKK showed up hoping for a fight and they got one. And now they’re whining about. Their side _killed_ someone and they’re claiming to be oppressed and mistreated! > > Yes, I blame the rabid rally side for the violence and chaos. If you are armed to defend yourself and are attacked and you defend yourself are you to be blamed for exercising forethought? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787/60 "2017-08-16T18:49:02Z")
I feel like I am doing violence to the English language every time I try to pronounce the word “antifa”. Is it an-ti-FA? Is it an-TI-fuh? AN-ti-fa? Something else? Help a capitalist out here!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charlottesville-can-both-sides-be-blamed-for-violence/793787.md?page=4)