# Charming Psychopath Protagonists **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270 "2015-12-12T21:17:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/21 "2015-12-13T23:22:43Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > A lot of people on the show were drawn to his personality. His wife, children, members of his mob family (most notably Christopher.) Few outside people liked him, but that is because he did not try to be charming with them. He was charming enough to his family and mob family that a lot of people were tricked into thinking he genuinely cared about them. > > Other charming psychopaths: Vic Mackey, Don Draper, and Al Swearengen, I couldnt agree more. The most obvious example that I can think of is the episode in season 1 ["The Sopranos" College (TV Episode 1999) - IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0705236/?ref_=ttep_ep5) College where Tony and Meadow take a roadtrip to visit a college. Tpny is a loving and protective father when he is not looking into her eyes and lying and finally killing a guy. The Priest in that episode was also a sociopath but in a completely different way. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/22 "2015-12-14T16:27:05Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Other charming psychopaths: Vic Mackey, Don Draper, and Al Swearengen, Again, I must bring up the terminology issue. In my understanding, a “sociopath” is someone without a conscience or empathy or feelings of guilt. A sociopath can be charming and popular, but will always act in his or her own interest and will not hesitate to harm others in pursuit of his or her own goals. Many leaders and successful people are likely sociopaths. A “psychopath,” however, is someone who feels pleasure from harming others, like serial killers. I don’t think that most of the characters being brought up here are psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/23 "2015-12-14T17:12:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Again, I must bring up the terminology issue. > > In my understanding, a “sociopath” is someone without a conscience or empathy or feelings of guilt. A sociopath can be charming and popular, but will always act in his or her own interest and will not hesitate to harm others in pursuit of his or her own goals. > > Many leaders and successful people are likely sociopaths. > > A “psychopath,” however, is someone who feels pleasure from harming others, like serial killers. > > I don’t think that most of the characters being brought up here are psychopaths. If you want to get technical, what people are really talking about are variations on the DSM IV classification of “Antisocial Personality Disorder” or also possibly “Narcissistic Personality Disorder”. People casually toss the terms “psychopath” or “sociopath” around when what they really mean “selfish, self-centered jerk”. Since we are talking fictional portrayals here, I find a more useful shorthand is to use “sociopath” to describe someone who is charming and able to blend into society (e.g. Patrick Bateman, Hannibal Lechter) and “psychopath” to describe someone who is so manic and weird to not able to pass as “normal” (e.g. Charles Manson, Buffalo Bill). In reality, I suspect very few business executives are legitimately sociopathic. These are the DSM guidelines for identifying someone with APD: 1.failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest; 2.deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; 3.impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; 4.irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; 5.reckless disregard for safety of self or others; 6.consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations; 7.lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. As you can see, people who exhibit these traits have a hard time keeping ANY job, let alone, be so successful at a job as to be placed in a position of power and authority. That’s not to say there aren’t a lot of selfish, narcissistic jerks in business. Just that most of them probably aren’t mentally ill (or at least not suffering from this particular mental illness). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/24 "2015-12-14T17:35:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Again, I must bring up the terminology issue. > > In my understanding, a “sociopath” is someone without a conscience or empathy or feelings of guilt. A sociopath can be charming and popular, but will always act in his or her own interest and will not hesitate to harm others in pursuit of his or her own goals. > > Many leaders and successful people are likely sociopaths. > > A “psychopath,” however, is someone who feels pleasure from harming others, like serial killers. > > I don’t think that most of the characters being brought up here are psychopaths. QFT. And Don Draper certainly isn’t I actively hated him by the end of MAD MEN and cheered whenever he got his comeuppance, but he was merely an asshole. He broke into tears when he learned that his first ex-wife had cancer. He felt gulty enough about his treatment of his second ex-wife to give her a substantial portion of his fortune. He clearly loved Peggy on some level; he cared enough about Joan to want to cheer her up without trying to get into her pants. He loved Anna without any sexual component. Et cetera. Don was an awful husband, father and boss, but he was rarely violaent, never inititated violence, and was frequently generous not only without trying to get recompense but when hteyre was clearly nothing in it for him but a good feeling. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/25 "2015-12-14T17:45:48Z")
To summarize what **msmith537** said: in pure psychiatric terms, psychopathy and sociopathy are exactly the same. The only difference is that one term sounds much scarier than the other. Defining a psychopath as someone who enjoys inflicting pain on others is factually incorrect. The proper term for that sort of person is _sadist._ Naturally, the two aren’t mutually exclusive – serial killers like Ted Bundy and Hannibal Lecter fall into both categories. However, a _true_ psychopath is more like Scott Peterson, who murdered his wife not because he enjoyed it, but because he felt it was expedient to do so. Most psychopaths/sociopaths never murder anyone, because they’re aware that the risks of getting caught are too great. But they have no problem making decisions which negatively effect thousands of people, which could potentially lead to deaths. They are very common in business administration and politics. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/26 "2015-12-14T18:21:34Z")
The sociopath is less likely to be the CEO and much more likely to be the “efficiency expert” that the CEO hires to come in and ruin a bunch of lives to benefit the company’s bottom line. I’m personally growing tired of the “charming psychopath” trend in dramas, especially when the characters are written not as psychopaths but as what the viewing public thinks a psychopath ‘should’ be. _Sherlock_ was a great example of this one, and the bit where he says, “I’m not a psychopath, I’m a highly functioning sociopath” was so egregiously incorrect, especially coming from a character whose whole shtick is knowing everything about everything, that it nearly put me off the show altogether. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/27 "2015-12-14T18:43:45Z")
I liked NIGHTCRAWLER, where, well, he’s not a _charming_ psychopath; he’s just willing to rattle off what sounds like a rehearsed speech full of corporate jargon at the drop of a hat, is all – and sometimes he does it at the wrong time, but it’s often the right time, and that’s enough. And he sounds calm and polite and matter-of-fact when he’s telling the truth, and he sounds just as calm and polite and matter-of-fact when he’s lying. (And he sounds just as calm and polite and matter-of-fact when he’s negotiating; he doesn’t truly get people, and can be creepy and off-putting – but what interpersonal skills he’s got in _spite_ of that suffice to cover for his failings while he gets wins.) ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/28 "2015-12-15T03:34:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > QFT. And Don Draper certainly isn’t I actively hated him by the end of MAD MEN and cheered whenever he got his comeuppance, but he was merely an asshole. He broke into tears when he learned that his first ex-wife had cancer. He felt gulty enough about his treatment of his second ex-wife to give her a substantial portion of his fortune. He clearly loved Peggy on some level; he cared enough about Joan to want to cheer her up without trying to get into her pants. He loved Anna without any sexual component. Et cetera. Don was an awful husband, father and boss, but he was rarely violaent, never inititated violence, and was frequently generous not only without trying to get recompense but when hteyre was clearly nothing in it for him but a good feeling. What made that character so fascinating was that he was capable of loving people on some level. It wasn’t like Tony Soprano where it was obvious midway through the first season that he was never going to become a good person. Draper sort of had a chance. But he did behave like a sociopath most of his life. He ran away from his family. He lied about who he was to almost everyone. He cheated on his wife without thinking about the consequences to her or his children. It doesn’t matter that he wasn’t violent and that he was sometimes a decent person. He mostly did what he wanted and didn’t care who he hurt in the process. I am using psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, for reasons buddha\_david mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/29 "2015-12-15T03:48:24Z")
It took 28 posts before[Eddie Haskell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Haskell)needs to be mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/30 "2015-12-15T14:28:51Z")
There was a TV show in the early '60s, called **The Rogues**. It starred David Nevin, Gig Young and Charles Boyer (along with Timothy Coote and Gladys Cooper). They played a family of international con-men. It was well written and always fun. (once again, definitely more sociopaths than psychopaths). Then there was that banjo-picking family on the **Andy Griffith Show**. And the guy who wanted to marry into it…but was too far out even for them. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/31 "2015-12-15T15:13:05Z")
I think Don Draper was DRIVEN to ‘do whatever he wanted to do’. He had all those affairs and felt kind of bad at times, but he couldn’t make himself stop and lead a better life on his own. He needed a psychiatrist desperately. In those days, perhaps, it was seen as appropriate for troublesome, neurotic women and delinquent children, not ‘real men’. Who handled their own problems, after the war and later, self-medicating with martinis and old fashioneds. ---
**Author:** ![SuperDopaminergic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@SuperDopaminergic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperDopaminergic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/charming-psychopath-protagonists/740270/32 "2015-12-16T04:52:37Z")
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