# Chavez: for or against **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017 "2003-01-21T18:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/21 "2003-01-22T13:59:21Z")
No, the Venezuelen constitution authorizes a referendum, but in August at the earliest. The protestors want the referendum NOW, though, which is a bit silly, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/22 "2003-01-22T14:03:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\* And in the USA beware of the press that has Cuban-American ownership: they too have an ax to grind against Chavez. The Guardian reported Cuban-Americans had a hand in the latest coup attempt (IMHO I know enough history to remember that Cuban-Americans have been used by past republican administrations to have a plausible denial to say the US was not involved if things go wrong, maybe the current administration was not involved in the coup, but sure as hell did not do ANYTHING against them in this case)_\* Please include a cite on this Guardian article, this is the first I hear of Cuban-American involvement. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/23 "2003-01-22T14:55:02Z")
Is this it? [http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4398499,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4398499,00.html) > [@](#): > > Venezuela coup linked to Bush team > Specialists in the ‘dirty wars’ of the Eighties encouraged the plotters who tried to topple President Chavez > > Ed Vulliamy in New York > Sunday April 21, 2002 > The Observer > > …the man President George Bush tasked to be his key policy-maker for Latin America, Otto Reich. > > Reich is a right-wing Cuban-American who, under Reagan, ran the Office for Public Diplomacy. It reported in theory to the State Department, but Reich was shown by congressional investigations to report directly to Reagan’s National Security Aide, Colonel Oliver North, in the White House. > > \< snip \> > > Reich also has close ties to Venezuela, having been made ambassador to Caracas in 1986. His appointment was contested both by Democrats in Washington and political leaders in the Latin American country. The objections were overridden as Venezuela sought access to the US oil market. > > Reich is said by OAS sources to have had ‘a number of meetings with Carmona and other leaders of the coup’ over several months. The coup was discussed in some detail, right down to its timing and chances of success, which were deemed to be excellent. > > On the day Carmona claimed power, Reich summoned ambassadors from Latin America and the Caribbean to his office. He said the removal of Chavez was not a rupture of democratic rule, as he had resigned and was ‘responsible for his fate’. He said the US would support the Carmona government. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/24 "2003-01-22T15:25:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*Is this it? > > [http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4398499,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4398499,00.html) \*\* Nope, that sounds like a Bush administration official, who happens to be Cuban-American executing the administration’s policy. Long way from your original quote > [@](#): > > The Guardian reported Cuban-Americans had a hand in the latest coup attempt If that’s the article you remembered then I’m gonna have to take exception with your characterization, and call you on it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/25 "2003-01-22T20:02:09Z")
**Bayonet1976** , that involvement by an administration official actually makes it sound worse than just an involvement by right wing Cuban-Americans. Here is the article I remembered: > **[Comment: Bush's Bay of Piglets](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/24/usa.venezuela)** > > Duncan Campbell: If the US was the villain in the Venezuelan coup, Latin America's much-derided leaders were the heroes. > [@](#): > > In the Pentagon, the man with responsibility for Latin America is Rogelio Pardo-Maurer, who was the aide to the head of the Contras when they were waging their US-backed war against the elected leftwing Sandinista government in Nicaragua. Two of the Venezuelan military who supported the coup, General Efrain Vasquez and General Eddie Ramirez Poveda, are graduates of the US Army School of the Americas in Georgia, where many members of the Latin Ameri can military have been trained in how to deal with troublesome lefties. > > The tycoon who led the media onslaught that preceded the coup and whose television station announced it, Cuban-American Gustavo Cisneros, is an old fishing pal of Bush senior. I have to acknowledge something: not all Cuban-americans are like that. This is now only an opinion: I had the impression there was more to it. I will always think that when Miami is the place one escapes, I suspect the extreme right Cubans to be involved: > **[Miami.com Food, Tourism, Clubs & Travel News | Miami Herald](https://www.miamiherald.com/miami-com/)** > [@](#): > > Venezuelans linked to coup attempt said to be in Miami > > Two Venezuelan businessmen allegedly involved in a failed coup attempt against President Hugo Chávez have sought refuge in Miami because they fear retaliation, friends and business partners said. > > Isaac Pérez Recao, 32, identified in Venezuelan media reports as a key financial and political backer of efforts to topple Chávez and establish an interim government, is living in a condo in Key Biscayne, friends in South Florida said. > > Venezuelan military investigators raided his Caracas home Wednesday and seized several guns and boxes of ammunition in a basement shooting range. It was not clear if the guns were illegal or part of a Pérez Recao-owned firm that sells Israeli weapons in Venezuela. > > Roberto Carmona Borjas, 35, who helped draft some of the decrees issued by the interim government, arrived in Miami last week but has not been heard from since, partners in the capital of Caracas added. Or at least, the administration not bothering to investigate coup plotters that move in. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/26 "2003-01-22T20:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > \*\ ***This is now only an opinion: I had the impression there was more to it. I will always think that when Miami is the place one escapes, I suspect the extreme right Cubans to be involved:** Nah, Miami has been the traditional place for Latin and South American exiles to gather. Castro himself spent some time in Miami when he was preparing for his invasion of Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/27 "2003-01-22T20:53:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bayonet1976 \* > \*\*Nah, Miami has been the traditional place for Latin and South American exiles to gather. Castro himself spent some time in Miami when he was preparing for his invasion of Cuba. \*\* Agree, but times are different; after the recent INS scandals, America is supposed to be more capable on finding the differences between a bona fide exile and a coup plotter. Or is the administration looking the other way in this case? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/28 "2003-01-22T22:01:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bayonet1976 \* > \*\*…I’m gonna have to take exception with your characterization, and call you on it. \*\* Pay closer attention, **bayonet1976** : it wasn’t me–it was Gigobuster. ---
**Author:** ![Nanu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/dec6dc/32.png) [@Nanu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanu)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/29 "2003-01-23T04:57:53Z")
Hello all, I’m happy to see that so many people gave their opinions on this matter, sorry that I couldn’t reply sooner but I’ve been busy…. To answer what Beagle asked: The thing that Chavez has done that I dislike the most is the polarization of an otherwise peaceful people. Venezuelans have shared a history of peaceful coexistence for over 100 years without a single revolution or war this century. Chavez has made it clear that you are either with him or an enemy that must be defeated. This has been made clear by his refusal to negotiate on any terms even if this means the collapse of the country as we know it. In his speeches anything that is not “Bolivarian” is attacked and ridiculed. This has created a vast rift between Chavez supporters and the opposition which has lead to violence and many deaths. A proper analogy would be if Bush said that anyone that was not a Republican was a traitor to the nation. - On the matter of the referendum: Today the Venezuelan supreme court ruled out the validity of a referendum, that was to be held Feb. 2, basically on a technicality. This referendum was simply to ask the people whether they approved of Chavez or not. If he lost the referendum he did not have to stand down, it was simply to officially show that he did no have the support of the majority. Such referendums are in the constitution and all the legal steps necessary were taken to undergo it (such as collecting 2000000 signatures). - Another issue that I would like to settle: Chavez does no have the support of the poor, most of his support comes from the poor classes but this is different than having the support of the poor. Chavez has between 30 to 20 % popularity (this may seem like a lot but remember that he has pushed anyone that does not support him to despise him, which means that 70% can’t stand the sight of him.) In a country with 70% of the population being poor, you don’t have the support of the poor if only 30% is with you. And on a side note, basically all democratic Venezuelan presidents have been populist (you don’t win an election in a country with 70% of poverty without at least making yourself seem like a populist) so those of you that say past Venezuelan governments have been right wing assholes exploiting the poor, let me tell you that you are wrong. - And let me remind all of you that still believe Chavez is a great democrat, He was discharged from the army and arrested for leading a military coup in 1994. - About the “coup”: what happened here in April was very peculiar. I guess it was a coup, but not in the traditional sense of the word, it was kind of a constitutional coup (this is evident in the fact that none of the coup leaders have been arrested on any formal charge and they are all free and protesting in plaza Altamira). There is a controversial article in the Venezuelan constitution, article 350, which basically gives you the right to not recognize a government that violates basic human rights. On the 11 of April, many of the military high command used this article to ask for Chavez’s resignation because of the violence that occurred that day on an opposition march towards the presidential palace (19 people were killed). No tanks assaulted the palace or any troops fired any bullets (although some legions loyal to Chavez went to defend the palace). Chavez resigned (he himself has admitted this) and then the army put Carmona Estanga as president who then, thinking that it was a traditional coup, went on to violate the constitution which lead to the collapse of his government. I believe that the US had little part in these acts, it was all very haphazard and bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/30 "2003-01-23T05:56:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nanu \* > \*\*Chavez resigned (he himself has admitted this) and then the army put Carmona Estanga as president who then, thinking that it was a traditional coup, went on to violate the constitution which lead to the collapse of his government. I believe that the US had little part in these acts, it was all very haphazard and bizarre. \*\* More bizarre it sounds because you are not taking into account the fact that while he was prisoner by the coup plotters, members of the government and sympathizers of Chavez were being rounded up and as Narco news reported some were murdered. In those conditions anybody could be forced to say they resigned, but I have yet to see a quote were he says that he resigned while not in custody, it does stretch the truth when I see this being put forward still. The reason why the Venezuelan media got to be discredited was that Chavez “resignation”, and the fact that they called the coup a “democratic action” even weeks after the coup. In other words: do you have a **cite** for that admitted resignation? And I already knew about Chavez previous coup history, the Venezuelans knew that already when they voted for him! Bringing that up is just interesting, but the majority of Venezuelans choose to dismiss the past. Can you call him a dictator if it allows a hostile press to remain even after all that? And for the umpteenth time: I think he should be voted out of office. The opposition is not off the hook: IMO it takes two to tango, and it is silly to say Chavez alone is the reason for this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/31 "2003-01-23T06:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Chavez resigned (he himself has admitted this) \*\*If you resign at gunpoint, does that count as a “resignation”? I can’t find where Chavez himself got up and announced that he had resigned–one of the generals apparently issued the statement. [http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2002/apr/13/wnw\_1-1.htm](http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2002/apr/13/wnw_1-1.htm) > [@](#): > > Venezuelan President > Hugo Chavez resigns > Posted: 10:05 PM (Manila Time) | Apr. 12, 2002 > Agence France-Presse > > CARACAS – President Hugo Chavez agreed Friday to resign from office, armed forces chief General Lucas Rincon said. > > “The military leadership regret the sad events that took place in this capital yesterday,” Rincon told reporters after announcing that Chavez had accepted to step down. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1925161.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1925161.stm) > [@](#): > > Friday, 12 April, 2002, 12:01 GMT 13:01 UK > Venezuela president forced out > > Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is being held at a military barracks in the capital Caracas after being forced to resign by the country’s military. > > \< snip \> > > Mr Chavez finally quit after overnight talks with a delegation of generals at the Miraflores presidential palace. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/13/world/main506100.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/13/world/main506100.shtml) > [@](#): > > Military Ousts Venezuelan President > CARACAS, Venezuela, April 12, 2002 > > …Attorney General Isaias Rodriguez said Chavez was still president because he had not, in fact, resigned but was forced out by the military. Carmona said the constitution calls for Chavez’s resignation to be accepted by Congress. > > \< snip \> > > Generals said Chavez, 47, was forced to resign by his military high command overnight after his civilian supporters opened fire on protesters in an 150,000-strong anti-Chavez march on Thursday. At least 14 people were killed and 240 wounded. > > However, Chavez’s allies on Friday denied he resigned and called the army move a coup. ---
**Author:** ![Nanu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/dec6dc/32.png) [@Nanu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanu)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/32 "2003-01-23T07:32:48Z")
I am not saying that I approve of the coup, it was a coup. I just wanted to point out that it was not all that unconstitutional. It is also interesting to point out that the military general who publicly announced Chavez’s resignation is today the minister of defense. But this is not the issue at hand and I would not like to have this debate go off in this direction… GIGObuster: I don’t have a CITE for his admitted resignation but I heard him say it on TV in an address to the nation after the coup. What do you think of Chavez’s refusal to hold a referendum? It’s in the constitution, you can have a referendum on any matter at any time just to see what people think. The fact that Chavez has boycotted this referendum (first by not allocating the necessary funds for it and then by having the supreme court dismiss it) is proof that he does not have popular support. If he did, holding the referendum and winning it would solve all his problems, the opposition would no longer ask for elections it would not win and the strike would end. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/33 "2003-01-23T07:47:05Z")
Um, how is a military coup d’etat ever “not all that unconstitutional”? You’re saying that a military coup can be constitutional? How? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/34 "2003-01-23T08:15:23Z")
If Chavez had announced his resignation on television, presumably the Honor Guard would have laid down their arms. But by late Saturday night, April 13, they hadn’t. [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/04/13/venezuela/](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/04/13/venezuela/) > [@](#): > > Provisional Venezuelan president resigns > New leader pledges to reinstate Chavez > April 13, 2002 Posted: 11:38 PM EDT (0338 GMT) > > \< snip \> > > Three thousand members of the National Honor Guard – which protects the presidential palace and remained loyal to Chavez throughout the ordeal – regained control of the presidential residence hours before Carmona’s resignation became official. > > The unit’s leader, Col. Jose Morado, said they would lay down their arms only if Chavez announced publicly that he had resigned. Timeline. [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/08/14/venezuela.unrest/](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/08/14/venezuela.unrest/) > [@](#): > > On April 11, Venezuela’s military declared it was in control of the country after a day of demonstrations by tens of thousands turned violent, leaving 12 people dead from gunfire and dozens more wounded. > > Accusations emerged that government supporters, under orders from the Chavez government, had fired on the demonstrators. That set off more street protests. > > On April 12, with Chavez’s whereabouts a mystery, Rincon announced the president had resigned and that businessman Pedro Carmona Estanga had been appointed interim president. > But the next day Carmona resigned and former Vice President Diosdado Cabello was sworn in as head of government. > > \*\*That evening some 3,000 members of Chavez’s national honor guard took control of the presidential palace, refusing to lay down their arms until they heard from Chavez himself. > > Chavez’s wife announced she had spoken with her husband by telephone and that he denied he had resigned; she said he had been forced into custody.\*\* > > On April 14, Chavez was back in power, expressing regrets for the deaths of the 12 demonstrators and promising not to take reprisals against opponents who had briefly ousted him.[bolding mine] After Chavez was reinstated on Sunday, April 14, he did make a national television address. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/not\_in\_website/syndication/monitoring/media\_reports/1929184.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/1929184.stm) > [@](#): > > Sunday, 14 April, 2002, 12:39 GMT 13:39 UK > Chavez calls for national unity > > \< snip \> > > "I was not mistreated at any point during my detention, and the soldiers guarding me often burst into tears on seeing me… > > "You haven’t resigned? one young soldier asked me. When I replied in the negative he saluted me and declared ‘In that case you are my president’… So it doesn’t look to me like he ever publicly resigned. Maybe you’re thinking of his April 14 “call for peace” address? Because the military had him in custody for those three days (“detention”)–he wasn’t allowed to make a statement to the press. That was why Rincon made the announcement. ---
**Author:** ![Nanu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/dec6dc/32.png) [@Nanu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanu)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/35 "2003-01-23T08:37:06Z")
The coup leaders did not break the constitution or any law in asking Chavez for his resignation, this is why they are free today and have not been acquitted for any crime. The act of removing Chavez from power was “constitutional” (there is a loophole in the constitution that allowed this). On a later date Chavez admitted that he resigned, but that it was not of his free will. There was an act and everything in which the Vice President gave Chavez the presidency back. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/36 "2003-01-23T09:12:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Today the Venezuelan supreme court ruled out the validity of a referendum, that was to be held Feb. 2, basically on a technicality. \*\* Actually, it looks to me like both sides are exploiting technicalities. That’s how Politics works. [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/01/23/venezuela.strike.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/01/23/venezuela.strike.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > Venezuelan court suspends Chavez referendum > Opposition angry over decision > Thursday, January 23, 2003 Posted: 1:46 AM EST (0646 GMT) > > \< snip \> > > The decision stunned the opposition, which had delivered 2 million signatures in November to demand the referendum and backed it up with a strike that has lasted 52 days. It was also to pay for the vote because Chavez’s government refused to do so. > > \< snip \> > > …Justices ruled that no national vote – a referendum or election – can be held until it decides whether elections council member Leonardo Pizani, who helped organize the referendum, is eligible to serve on the panel. > > Pizani had resigned from the council in 2000, only to rejoin last November. He insisted he could rejoin because Congress, by law, had failed to formally accept his resignation. > > Pro-Chavez lawmakers filed suit arguing that Pizani’s two-year absence from the council made his resignation legally binding. The reason he resigned in 2000 was because of another referendum, to ask people if the current union leadership should be replaced. > **[Dagens Arbete](https://da.se?OpenDocument)** > > Dagens Arbete är industriarbetarnas tidning och görs i tre olika editioner för medlemmar i IF Metall, GS-facket och Pappers. > [@](#): > > Venezuela > Chavez hit on Trade unions > IPS Inter Press Service 2000-11-14: Fight against corruption hits trade unions. > By Andrés Cañizález > > \< snip \> > > The call for the Dec 3 referendum led to last week’s resignation from the National Electoral Council of Leonardo Pizani and Ignacio Avalos, who argued that the instrument of the popular referendum – established for the first time in Venezuela by the constitution approved last December – was being ‘‘illegally’’ and ‘‘unconstitutionally’’ used by submitting ‘‘an internal question of trade union organisations’’ to voters at large. Pizani and Avalos complained that ‘‘the sense of the referendum is being distorted.’’ Now, in a free society, the People decide what kind of trade unions they want; the President doesn’t impose them from above. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1047268.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1047268.stm) > [@](#): > > Mr Chavez insists that the union leaders are an extension of a corrupt political system that he has promised to dismantle. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1053594.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1053594.stm) > [@](#): > > Mr Chavez has set up his own pro-government unions and says the old bosses must go to pave the way for a democratic revolution. I don’t “get” that. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/37 "2003-01-23T10:33:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **The act of removing Chavez from power was “constitutional” (there is a loophole in the constitution that allowed this** If it was constitutional, then why were the leaders of the coup brought up on charges? If it was legal, why were all these people arrested? The word “treason” was used. If the coup really was constitutional, “treason” shouldn’t even have been an issue. [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2002/04/item20020414095530\_1.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2002/04/item20020414095530_1.htm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2194206.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2194206.stm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2182097.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2182097.stm) And, this says the coup’s transfer of power wasn’t constitutional anyway. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/13/world/main506100.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/13/world/main506100.shtml) > [@](#): > > Military Ousts Venezuelan President > > CARACAS, Venezuela, April 12, 2002 > > \< snip \> > > But Carmona’s appointment was challenged by Venezuela’s attorney general as unconstitutional, and several Latin American nations condemned Chavez’s ouster Friday. > > Attorney General Isaias Rodriguez said Chavez was still president because he had not, in fact, resigned but was forced out by the military. Carmona said the constitution calls for Chavez’s resignation to be accepted by Congress. [http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2002/apr/15/wnw\_1-1.htm](http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2002/apr/15/wnw_1-1.htm) > [@](#): > > Pedro Carmona, who on Friday led the interim government that ousted Chavez, announced his resignation in a radio address to the nation just moments before announcing that the legislature had named Cabello acting president of Venezuela. > > “The national legislature has decided to assign the post of president to Vice President Diosdado Cabello, after the interim president presented his resignation to the Venezuelan people,” said Carmona, speaking of himself in the third person. > > \*\*The announcement restored the constitutionally-stipulated succession that had been interrupted by Carmona’s provisional government for twenty-seven hours. \*\* [bolding mine] The legislature never officially accepted Chavez’ resignation, so that makes Carmona’s temporary government illegal. Then after Carmona resigned, the legislature named Cabello as acting president, with the understanding that it was only until Chavez got back. If you think the Venezuelan constitution contains a provision or loophole permitting the transfer of power through military coups, I’m going to need to see a cite before I’ll believe it. Here it is in words of one syllable. “The army kicked Chavez out.” Show me how it’s legal. [http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020413-18120759.htm](http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020413-18120759.htm) > [@](#): > > April 13, 2002 > Venezuela names leader > By Fabiola Sanchez > ASSOCIATED PRESS > > CARACAS, Venezuela — Venezuela’s military selected a leading businessman yesterday to replace former leftist President Hugo Chavez, whose combative rule was ended by army commanders after a bloody repression of a huge street protest. > > \< snip \> > > Generals said Mr. Chavez, 47, was forced out by his military high command overnight… ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/38 "2003-01-23T14:06:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*Pay closer attention, **bayonet1976** : it wasn’t me–it was Gigobuster. \*\* Please accept my apologies. On the other hand, was your post intended to support Gigobuster’s position that Cuban americans participated in the coup? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/39 "2003-01-24T15:33:56Z")
My post was intended to supply information. “Is this what you were thinking of?” I was asking him. ---
**Author:** ![ZooMetropolis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e480ec/32.png) [@ZooMetropolis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZooMetropolis)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017/40 "2003-01-25T00:47:13Z")
First, as some people already know by now, I am against Chávez. And I want to clarify something that the international press or malinformation has being spreading. The referendum that the opposition wanted to convoke was a “Consultive Referendum”. It is in the constitution, and it can be called in any time of the presidential period. This referendum is consisted in a question or a group of questions that have to be approved (they were approved). two million signatures (as **Nanu** said) were gathered for the approval. It is important that you understand that this referendum is not a presidential election, and is not the Revocatory Referendum that others talk about (the one that can be called at the presidential midterm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chavez-for-or-against/150017.md?page=3)