Chavez rattling his sabre, re: Falklands.

All you’ve shown so far is that he isnt a great leader economically and that he reacts badly when someone tries to overthrow him.

Same could apply to many leaders.

It could also apply to plenty of other leaders if an overthrow attempt was made in their countries.

Heck the US does it in other peoples countries, regularly.

What I want to see is some evidence that he is a genuine threat, that the US has real reason to be concerned, so far not anything credible has been presented.

He isn’t the worlds worst leader by a long shot, and he certainly isn’t the best, but as yet he is not the evil incarnate portrayed in the US, not on the evidence presented.

It amuses me that some folk will quote Amnesty when it records the misdeeds of smaller nations such as Venezuela, and in the next breath will pour scorn on its reports of misdeeds of the US.

I have noticed that this is often done by those who are not prepared to look objectively at their own countries.

If we are to give creedence to Amnesty reports on the Chavez administration, it would seem consistant to to the same when it condemns the US for its many misdeeds too.

Of course, had all the European countries not been in “Disunion,” a combined European fleet could have won the war easily.

Hell, they could have nuked Buenos Aires.

Chavez can say all he wants that he speaking “on behalf of the Latin American people” but he’s not. Venezuela is not Argentina. Peruvians and Paraguayans don’t have a great deal of interest in who owns the Falklands. It’s hot air.

I mean, at this point he’s just crossing into fantasy-land. General Belgrano was, of course, a warship. Had guns and everything. She was a Brooklyn-class cruiser armed with 6" guns.

Surely nobody thinks the rest of South America’s going to say “Oh, the hell with it, let’s put this guy in charge!”?

My guess is that the average listener of Chavez’s radio show will just take what he says as gospel, and will believe from now on that the british sank a fishing boat called Belgrano without provocation.

Be amused all you like, but did you happen to notice what the thread is actually about?

That bears repeating.

If Chavez is hoping that the whole of Latin America, or even South America only, will unite under his banner then he’s crazier than I gave him credit for. Brazil is much, much larger and powerful than Venezuela, I see no reasons why Brazilians, Chileans (Chile is the most-developed country in South America), Argentina (very proud people) or Colombians (who are not getting along with Chavez) will be convinced to join hands and sing “death to the Imperialist monster!” with him. Chavez is talking to his own people, he knows, everybody else knows.

I think it was Vargas Llosa who said that the tragedy of Venezuela is that it is a very poor country with a very rich government (oil). I agree with him.

scjas, AIUI, the Treaty of Paris retired any and all claims that the UK had towards the former thirteen colonies.

There’s never been a treaty to retire Argentina’s claim to the Malvinas. Not even after the Falkland Islands conflict - since neither belligerent declared war, there seems to have been no push to formally end the war with a treaty.

If I recall correctly they provided absolutely critical aid in the form of the latest and the best air-to-air missiles for our small force of Harriers. Without them we wouldn’t have won the air war and hence kept our surface fleet relatively intact.

All I can see in that Amnesty report is that the opposition has lots of violent protests during which firearms are often used.

The security forces use force which Amnesty states is indiscriminate, however, it is a pretty common tactic by terrorist groups to hijack legitimate protests, even peaceful ones which these clearly are not, to hide in and provoke an overreaction.

This over reaction is then exploited by the opposition organisations to try raise more support.
I notice that in many reports that you see of heavy handed treatment by Venezuelan Security forces, the opposition parties are rarely criticised, and yet they are certainly no better, and in the case of some, are backed directly with US support.

The behaviour of the security forces, and those who support Chavez are pretty much par for the course, and none of it means Chavez is directly behind it.

As for the economy being down the toilet, its almost a given that if the US decides to brng down the economy of any nation, including the UK, it could quite easily do so.

Chavez may well be a poor economic manager, but US hostility to him and his nations economy are bound to rack up the problems of orders of magnitude.

Up to now the laws he has put in place appear to be constitional, it could be argued that a lot of it is ‘slippery slope’ type stuff.

The so-called restrictions on the media turn out to be highly debateable, since the vast majority of it is in private hands.

The big problem to me seems to be that the US has in its sights a leader of an oil producing nation that is no cooperative, and that is crime enough.

Whatever that alleged faults are of Chavez, and they are just that - alleged, the US is prepared to make deals with far more odious, and dangerous leaders of oil producing nations, just as long as they remain compliant.

It’s impossible to condemn Chavez withour looking at the reasons for his coments, and actions, and also look at the messengers and work out why they are saying what they do.

He has committed the crimes of criticising the US on many issues, which in most instances are actually very valid comments, he has dealings with Cuba, but the US led media extend this and make claims he has also had dealings with N Korea, and every bogeyman on earth, I take these reports with a pinch of salt.

The original report was third hand, badly translated and out of context, and looks to be just a way of smearing Chavez.
We read the translation of his actual words and these are somewhat differant, its worth considering why.

When the media indulge in this kind of reporting, its impossible to trust anything they say about Chavez, they have undermined their own message.

You might also take a look at this analysis of the US media view of Chavez.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Print_Media/OpEd_Assassination_Chavez.html

Although these sotries appeared in UK media, Chavez is simply not a story here, and I just do not understand why such propaganda has been printed for UK consumption.

We do know that the Times proprietor has plenty of interests in US media, it almost appears to be media colonialism.

Try this link out.

http://www3.soapblox.net/neverinournames/showDiary.do;jsessionid=C150837B409143CDB5B2DC2F60694E93?diaryId=1355

Stories about Chavez and the Falklands are appearing in the UK media, but it is not a story? O.K. :rolleyes:

Whatever that means.

I suppose once you’ve gone off the deep end, it’s necessary to keep paddling.

I’ll repeat this passage from Amnesty International’s report once again for your edification:

"There were also more than 500 detentions and a number of reports of ill-treatment and torture…there is strong evidence that the use of rubber bullets, tear gas and batons was frequently indiscriminate and disproportionate and significantly contributed to a week of spiralling violence rather than preventing it.

Furthermore, the cases included in this report indicate that several of those detained were not only not involved in criminal acts prior to detention, but then faced ill-treatment and torture while in the custody of the security forces."

I can comprehend your need to downplay these human rights violations, but to pretend they don’t exist altogether?

The Falklands stuff is a non-story here in the U.S., but maybe that’s just reverse media colonialism to keep people guessing about the forces of oppression. :dubious:

When security forces are faced with a violent protest, during which firearms are likley to be used, it would not surpise me one bit that those security forces woud over react.

Its not the right thing to happen, but more developed nations, including the UK have done the same, and worse.

This does not make Chavez the anti hero that he is portrayed in the US media.

Nor does it prove that Chavez is personally responsible.

If you have some sort of smoking gun that proves otherwise, then bring it, this is called evidence, and its what you have signally failed to provide.

The plural of evidence is not anectdote.

Overreacting seem to happen a lot. Even when the protest is not violent.

This is the classic excuse used by right-wingers to dismiss reports of government violence and suppression of legitimate protest around the world. It is bizarre to see you happily adopting it, not to mention trying to stretch it to excuse torture of people who have committed no crime according to Amnesty.

You’ve got this backwards. It’s “the plural of anecdote is not evidence”. :smiley:

But that doesn’t apply here anyway, as you’re determined to ignore ample evidence, even from sources that cannot be viewed as tools of U.S. “media colonialism”.

This still does not prove Chavez is personally responsible, only that he should have better control of his security forces.

You can quite easily compare this to other leaders who claim no responsibility for the misdeeds of their operatives, especially the torture of innocents.
Does that ring a bell ?

What it shows is Chavez isn’t any worse or better that leaders of so-called developed nations.

The foregoing being said, it also should be noted that opposition groups overthrew Chavez, and attempted to install their own tinpot leader. This turned out to be supported by the local magnates along with backing from the US.
The population rapidly put Chavez back in place.

That opposition has been responsible for a great deal of violence, and have made their presence felt at many of these protests.

Having been ousted in the way he was, its hardly surprising that Chavez would have pretty low tolerance, and knowing he has a huge mandate from his electorate gives him the confidence to crack down hard.

In many ways he appears to me to have been surprisingly tolerant, as I have seen far worse behaviour by leaders of developed nations on matters far less likely to lead to revolution, and you have too, the world leaders which you could bear in mind for comparison are obvious.

This isn’t to praise him at all, no leader of any nation should allow their security forces to behave innapproprately, but as yet I have not seen any evidence posted that can state that Chavez is personally responsible.

I have seen a huge amount of hopelessly biased material, often innacurrate and with its own agenda, and even that does not provide the smoking gun.

Amnesty states torture goes on in Venezuela, doesn’t surprise me at all, Amnesty also states torture goes on all over the world, and sadly its true.
Torture, wrongful arrest abuse of human rights are not issues that are unique at all to Venezuela, the scale of such behaviour there is not particularly great, comparisons that some have made to equate Chavez with Mugabe are pretty desperate attempts to make Chavez out to be evil incarnate.
Fact is that Chavez is nothing like as repessive as Mugabe, the two are in totally differant leagues in this respect.

Chavez does not appear to be anything like the worlds worst leader, either historically or currently, if we really were looking to improve the lot of the repressed then there would be far worse leaders to go after, but the US is not interested in those (indeed in some cases it even sides with the abusers) because Venezuela has oil and is not cooperative with US ambitions.

The US is not, and rarely has been, interested in local politics or misbehaviour by leaders within their own borders, just as long as they toe the US line.

Well, thanks for clarifying for us that “everybody does it” will be your response from now on to any injustices discussed in this forum.

Interesting editorial on Chavez here.Note that the Falklands aren’t even mentioned.

But no matter, I’m sure “media colonialists” like the London Sunday Times will have Americans stirred up into a furor in no time at all, so that the remnants of the British empire can be stoutly defended. :wink:

At the present I’m living alongside a number of South Americans from Peru, Ecuador, Venezuela, Chile, and Brazil (as well as a number of Central Americans). It’s really quite amazing how many of our conversations involve laughing at Chavez.

So…what you are saying is that Chavez is no worse (or better) than Bush? And you think this is a ringing endorsement, even if it were accurate? I guess it hasn’t occurred to you that ‘they all do it’ works both ways…and is ironically the excuse that many people use to excuse the misdeeds of their own great leader (such as our own beloved President).

Of course, the things Chavez is doing go beyond even the mis-deeds of Bush…at least to anyone who has even a reasonably objective mind. This is not to say that what Bush has and is doing is good, mind…or that because Chavez is doing it that makes it a valid excuse that Bush is. Two wrongs doing make a right, ehe? They make a left instead I think…

-XT

Waitaminnit. Chavez might be arresting and even torturing his political enemies, or at least looking the other way while it’s done. But he can’t be responsible for more than a few hundred needless deaths. Bush has hundreds of thousands needless deaths to his account, and more than a million refugees.

What I am saying is that Chavez is no more noteworthy than plenty of other world leaders, some of whom are pretty close to home, yet he is very heavily criticised when other guilty parties are pretty much left to their own devices.

It’s not a case of ‘everyone does it’ so much as those doing the criticising need to look more closely at themselves. I wonder why some posters here are not doing more of this.

Chavez is quite a way down the list, that little list of world despots, the only reason he generates more noise from the US is simply that he doesn’t wish to play ball, that’s it.

The US has plenty to be ashamed of, many of its citizens are, yet the noise comes out that somehow that Chavez is the worst.

I have yet to see any conclusive evidence of Chavez misdeeds, I have seen criticisms, but when you look at what he has had to deal with in terms of foriegn supported uprisings, its really no surprise.
If you poke at any creature and corner it, don’t be too amazed it it strikes out any way it can.

I think what Chavez does is not great, but Bush is magnitudes worse because the US sets itself up to be some moral arbiter, all the while behaving abonimably, with abductions, supporting terrorist groups, overthrows, torture executions of local national opposition etc etc.

The scale of Chavez activities is miniscule compared to US, UK, France or any other of the major powers that consider themselves as such.

At no point have I stated that Chavez is ‘The Angel of the South’, nor have I hinted such, I have said that there are others far worse, I have also said that given foreign interferance, it isn’t surprising that there is state repression in Venezuela.

When it comes down to it, there are bigger and badder leaders far closer to home that are not being held to account, and resignations of top officials isn’t exactly what I’d call being held to account, such people ought to be in prison for the very long term.

Because it’s a red herring, as amply pointed out to you before. The OP is about Chavez and the Falklands; the silly responses about “media colonialist” conspiracies and Evils Around The World are attempts at tu quoque and distraction.

If you corner a wild “creature” (nice characterization of Chavez, by the way) it’ll fight, but it won’t come after innocent humans later and arrest and torture them.