# Cheap subsidised Gas for decades **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003 "2011-10-08T15:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![studmuffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@studmuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/studmuffin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/21 "2011-10-08T19:39:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > To be fair, you posted a debate type question in the forum set up for asking questions that have factual answers. > > In the spirit of this being a forum dedicated to discussions of facts. Facts ? Indeed, point taken, board protocol is very important , however perusing some of questions on this board it seems they rely more on opinion that hard facts. The Evolutionary Purpose Of Itching ? How Do I Get Head Hunted ? The average European drives 12 000 miles per annum and earns roughly $47 000 per year. The size of your country is fairly immaterial to the amount of miles you drive. One could, [shock horror] move closer to your place of work, and therefore dispense with wasted time and money commuting to and from work :smack: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/22 "2011-10-08T19:43:30Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > Facts ? > > Indeed, point taken, board protocol is very important , however perusing some of questions on this board it seems they rely more on opinion that hard facts. > > The Evolutionary Purpose Of Itching ? > > How Do I Get Head Hunted ? Three wrongs don’t make a right. > [@](#): > > The average European drives 12 000 miles per annum and earns roughly $47 000 per year. > > The size of your country is fairly immaterial to the amount of miles you drive. That’s very close to the same for the US. You could be right about the size of the country not having much to do with the average commute, but there are other factors that differentiate US from Europe. I’m thinking mainly of the relative lack of good public transportation in the US. > [@](#): > > One could, [shock horror] move closer to your place of work, and therefore dispense with wasted time and money commuting to and from work :smack: You paying for the cost of moving? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/23 "2011-10-08T19:45:09Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > It’s trivially true. It’s impossible for any tax not to involve social policy, as long as humans are voting to impose taxes on human activities. You are using a definition which doesn’t match conventional use. If someone says that a tax is used for social policy, they generally mean that as a primary, direct, and intentional effect. Cigarette taxes would be an example of this. If all taxes were for social policy, we would have to infer that the point of income taxes would be to discourage people from making money. That is ridiculous, of course–the point is to collect money to pay for services. The fact that the services affect social policy is irrelevant these are indirect effects. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/24 "2011-10-08T19:51:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Three wrongs don’t make a right. But three lefts do. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/25 "2011-10-08T20:05:00Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > But three lefts do. In Euclidean geometry, sure, but we drive on the surface of the earth, which is roughly spherical. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/26 "2011-10-08T20:06:06Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > In Euclidean geometry, sure, but we drive on the surface of the earth, which is roughly spherical. Good thing you said “roughly” or someone would have been in to bitch-slap you on that! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![studmuffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@studmuffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/studmuffin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/27 "2011-10-08T20:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > You paying for the cost of moving? No but, if you paid $9 a gallon it might be an incentive for the average yankee to drive less, to build cars with smaller efficient engines, to utilise your underused but brilliant rail network for passenger use and rely less on Middle East oil. Plus… the added revenue from your $9 gallon would fund a decent Free US Health Service and Welfare system. Hey, see, problem solved 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/28 "2011-10-08T20:17:04Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > No but, if you paid $9 a gallon it might be an incentive for the average yankee to drive less, to build cars with smaller efficient engines, to utilise your underused but brilliant rail network for passenger use and rely less on Middle East oil. > > Plus… the added revenue from your $9 gallon would fund a decent Free US Health Service and Welfare system. > > Hey, see, problem solved 😃 If you want to start a debate about raising gas taxes in the US, you will find a mostly friendly audience here over in GD. ---
**Author:** ![zwede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ac91a4/32.png) [@zwede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwede)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/29 "2011-10-08T20:41:20Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > No but, if you paid $9 a gallon it might be an incentive for the average yankee to drive less, to build cars with smaller efficient engines, to utilise your underused but brilliant rail network for passenger use and rely less on Middle East oil. > > Plus… the added revenue from your $9 gallon would fund a decent Free US Health Service and Welfare system. > > Hey, see, problem solved 😃 Ah, yes, because the government knows best and only by letting them take all our money will we find true freedom and happiness. :rolleyes: I lived in Europe for 24 years. I’m not going back. PS. There is no such thing as “free” health care. You still pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/30 "2011-10-08T20:45:15Z")
Moving to Great Debates from GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/31 "2011-10-08T23:25:15Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > Unlike the rest of the western world, why are North Americans not prepared to pay a realistic and fair price for Gas ? What is a realistic and fair price for something you can pump out of the ground like water? I don’t know any western world country who is paying a realistic and fair price except if you include Venezuela which I think gas goes for under $0.50/gal there. Saudi Arabia, last I heard which was some time ago has gas at $0.25/gal. Perhaps in the US $1/gal is reasonable and fair, why we are not prepared for that I don’t know. What western country were you referring to? All that I know are paying considerably more then that. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/32 "2011-10-08T23:28:19Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > No but, if you paid $9 a gallon it might be an incentive for the average yankee to drive less, to build cars with smaller efficient engines, to utilise your underused but brilliant rail network for passenger use and rely less on Middle East oil. > > Plus… the added revenue from your $9 gallon would fund a decent Free US Health Service and Welfare system. > > Hey, see, problem solved 😃 What basis is there for $9/gal gas? Yes overcharging may cause a shift of behavior but that does not mean that the overcharging is justified. But this is opposite the OP, which is asking about reasonable and fair prices, $9 or the $3 and change it is currently is neither reasonable or fair both are way too high artificially. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/33 "2011-10-08T23:58:21Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > I was just musing that Gas isn’t used as an unlimited source of Govt. Tax revenue as it is in Europe. > > In europe up to 65% of the price of petrol is Tax, the motorist sadly bears the brunt of inefficient administrations and is mercilessly taxed , whereas in the USA Petrol has remained around the $3-4 mark for many years. Well, no, that’s not what you said. It may have been what you were thinking, but your original posts attacked Americans for “not wanting to pay realistic prices”, and mentioned nothing about tax policies. As I said, the way you phrased it encouraged unkind replies, as it came across as - and, frankly, was - a rather rude attack on Americans - and the English speaking intranets are nearly all Americans, so you can’t do that ever (unless you’re on a country-specific board not dominated by Americans). You gotta be diplomatic, man! You can criticise Americans sometimes, as long as you phrase it right. Takes effort, though! It’s just about the numbers - they’re the most populous English speaking country in the world, so you gotta understand that you’re in their environment when you get lippy. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/35 "2011-10-10T23:34:27Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > Unlike the rest of the western world, why are North Americans not prepared to pay a realistic and fair price for Gas ? Our gas is about 2 to 3 dollars more expensive than it needs to be, exactly why you think its cheap is a mistery. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/36 "2011-10-11T12:29:44Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Our gas is about 2 to 3 dollars more expensive than it needs to be, exactly why you think its cheap is a mistery. > Declan How is it defined “needs to be”? In the US it is essentially a market price for petrol, so it seems it is then at the price it ‘needs to be.’ ---
**Author:** ![Anachronism](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@Anachronism](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anachronism)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/37 "2011-10-11T13:16:27Z")
Since this thread is in GD now… Any thoughts on what the effect on oil/gas prices would be if the US had foreign and military policy’s that did not take oil prices/supply into consideration in any way? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/38 "2011-10-11T14:09:39Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > How is it defined “needs to be”? In the US it is essentially a market price for petrol, so it seems it is then at the price it ‘needs to be.’ As I recall, Declan is in Canada–a petroleum producer that sells more crude oil to the US than any other single country in the world ([cite](http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epc0_im0_mbbl_a.htm)). I’m thinking he may be wondering why the US can buy Canada’s fuel for less than Canadians can. (Quick and dirty answer: it’s Canada’s federal and provincial excise taxes.) ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/39 "2011-10-11T22:26:58Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > As I recall, Declan is in Canada–a petroleum producer that sells more crude oil to the US than any other single country in the world ([cite](http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epc0_im0_mbbl_a.htm)). I’m thinking he may be wondering why the US can buy Canada’s fuel for less than Canadians can. (Quick and dirty answer: it’s Canada’s federal and provincial excise taxes.) I’m not really wondering, its in our best interest to sell stuff at world prices. As well its not only the fed and provincial tax, but the suppliers themselves keep the distribution of petroleum really tight, in terms of the amount of gallons that are allocated for North America. Keep the supply artificially low and then subject it to supply and demand+ taxes and get the price at the pumps that we do. Talking about how we get hosed at the pump is basically beating a dead horse in, at least my part of Canada, but as with anywhere else, the dead equine gets resurrected , so we can beat on it some more. I just don’t get how someone wants more taxes on any one given thing (not specifying the OP) as its something that I have heard else ware. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/40 "2011-10-11T22:28:06Z")
> [@Anachronism](#): > > Since this thread is in GD now… > > Any thoughts on what the effect on oil/gas prices would be if the US had foreign and military policy’s that did not take oil prices/supply into consideration in any way? You mean like pre-opec ? Declan ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003/41 "2011-10-13T18:26:44Z")
> [@studmuffin](#): > > to utilise your underused but brilliant rail network for passenger use I think you are overestimating the brilliance of our rail network. There’s no rail road track with 15 miles of where I live. I’ve lived in places where it’s even farther. The US is just too spread out for railroads to be a viable form of public transportation. Maybe on the east coast, or California where things are more densely populated. But every where in between, we need our cars. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheap-subsidised-gas-for-decades/599003.md?page=3)