# Check my intuition here--the N word was never respectful, correct? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135 "2013-06-28T16:21:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/61 "2013-06-30T04:51:37Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > “It’s nigger to you, bitch.” In the same circumstances, I would have said “Mr. Nigger,” but that clarifies matters.😉 ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/62 "2013-06-30T04:57:56Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Uhhh, I might be totally misrembering things (Paula Deen butter stroke doncha know), but if I recall correctly there was a time when at least SOME blacks/African americans/whatevers PREFERRED to referred to as “negro/s”. My cite is Jay Jay Walker IIRC. > > So, the fact that “nigger” comes from negro doesn’t mean anything. > > And I’ll agree with a few previous posters. It probably was RARELY a sign of respect, but in certain times and places (like rap music heh) it was sometimes nothing more than a matter of fact “descriptor” (which still obviously still had racial undertones). But nothing like today where a WASP yelling “nigger!” would call for being drawn and quartered by the general public. No rappers use “nigger” as a matter of fact discriptor. In fact, I’ve never heard a single black person call another black person nigger before. Nigga yes, but they aren’t remotely close. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/63 "2013-06-30T06:01:49Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Nigga yes, but they aren’t remotely close. This is nonsense. They are just different pronunciations of the same word. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/64 "2013-06-30T12:06:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > This is nonsense. They are just different pronunciations of the same word. I am actually not certain this is true. Nigga originates in this way, of course. But in writing, anyway, I never have seen the letter R used in this word in this kind of context. Nigga may have broken away to become it’s own word. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/65 "2013-06-30T16:35:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I am actually not certain this is true. Nigga originates in this way, of course. But in writing, anyway, I never have seen the letter R used in this word in this kind of context. Nigga may have broken away to become it’s own word. Maybe it’s the niggardly use of "R"s. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/66 "2013-06-30T17:19:18Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I am actually not certain this is true. Nigga originates in this way, of course. But in writing, anyway, I never have seen the letter R used in this word in this kind of context. Nigga may have broken away to become it’s own word. It may be regarded as having a different usage or meaning in some cultural groups, but that is far from generally accepted. I think most people in the US would regard them as being the same word and equally offensive. To say they “are not remotely close” is absurd. The word is not found in the online Merriam-Webster (but apparently is listed in the unabridged version, which I don’t have access to.) [The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nigga) regards the two spellings as synonymous. > [@](#): > > 1. nigga - (ethnic slur) extremely offensive name for a Black person; “only a Black can call another Black a nigga” > jigaboo, nigger, nigra, coon, spade From [Wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigga) > [@](#): > > There is conflicting popular opinion on whether there is any meaningful difference between nigga and nigger as a spoken term.[8] Many people consider the terms to be equally pejorative, and the use of nigga both in and outside African American communities remains controversial.[9] ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/67 "2013-06-30T21:19:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Part of the claim they were making was that nigger was the polite term before negro was. > [@Nava](#): > > Give that nigger derivates from negro, they need to see a proctologist. > [@billfish678](#): > > Uhhh, I might be totally misrembering things (Paula Deen butter stroke doncha know), but if I recall correctly there was a time when at least SOME blacks/African americans/whatevers PREFERRED to referred to as “negro/s”. What, pray tell, does that have to do with anything? > [@](#): > > So, the fact that “nigger” comes from negro doesn’t mean anything. It pretty well means that it was NOT a polite term BEFORE “negro” was, which is what **Frylock** related from the facebook fools and what **Nava** showed to be nonsensical. I’m sorry, I just don’t see the point of your post relative to what you responded to. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/68 "2013-06-30T23:53:45Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > So did these people who weren’t being \*actively \*disrespectful allow back people to use the same water fountains, attend the same schools, sit in the same section of the movie theater as white folk? > > Of course they used the term matter-of-factly, they were also racists matter-of factly. That didn’t make it better. Well, is it better, um, yeah it is. It’s still a form of racism, a form that still exists today and will always exist. But is it better to live next to people who may not want to invite you over for tea as opposed to people who will beat you to death for glancing at their daughter? There’s degrees of everything and tolerance of differences is most certainly one of them. As a great episode of South Park pointed out a few years ago the word ‘tolerance’ itself means exactly that, to tolerate. Not to 100% wholeheartedly and unhesitatingly embrace. It is great the closer people get to that end of things but it is NOT all or nothing. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/69 "2013-07-01T05:38:37Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Southerners (LBJ for one) would pronounce _negro_ as _nigrah_, not to be offensive, that was simply the way they pronounced the word. I wonder if your friends are confusing _nigrah_ for _nigger_, there’s certainly little difference between the sound of the words. To my ears it even sounds that in “I Have A Dream” MLK pronounces it more like _nigro_ (short I sound) when referring to “negro” people. Regional accent, but easy to see where the words are related. IIRC in Canada, from my exposure to the media in the 60’s, both coloured and negro were acceptable terms, but nigger was always a very serious insult. However, I don’t recall any discussion over Huckleberry Finn. I think by grade 10 everyone understood “things were different back then.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/70 "2013-07-01T09:52:58Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > What, pray tell, does that have to do with anything? > It pretty well means that it was NOT a polite term BEFORE “negro” was, which is what **Frylock** related from the facebook fools and what **Nava** showed to be nonsensical. > > I’m sorry, I just don’t see the point of your post relative to what you responded to. Its logic 101. The fact an unpolite term derives from a polite term means nothing (well little) about the unpolite term. It does not somehow prove the unpolite term is unpolite because it came from the more polite one. What kinda meaningless logic is that? Now if you want to argue that negro was NEVER a more polite form to start with (at least in certain circles), that’s a different kettle of fish. I am going off of decades old memories here and I would never claim I had the pulse on American culture, but I do seem to recall some folks of a certain persuasion being preferred to be called negro rather than black (and Africian American had not taken off yet). Oh, wait, what’s the name of that college fund? Oh, yeah. The United NEGRO College Fund. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/71 "2013-07-01T13:38:03Z")
Did anyone here read _Gone With the Wind_? The term was an everyday word. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/72 "2013-07-01T13:51:31Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Did anyone here read _Gone With the Wind_? The term was an everyday word. I don’t think anyone is arguing that it wasn’t an everyday word in certain circles at a certain time. The question is was it ever respectful? That, and I quote: “in the fifties and sixties, many black people demanded to be called ‘nigger’ as a term of respect.” That just sounds nuts. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/73 "2013-07-01T14:34:27Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Did anyone here read _Gone With the Wind_? The term was an everyday word. “Gone with the Wind” was written in the 1920s imagining how people in the Civil War era might have talked. If you want to know how they actually spoke, we have tons of primary sources, and I think on the balance they indicate that even in the south, “nigger” was a low-class disrespectful word. I think objections to its use by middle class whites, especially women or men in mixed company, was that it made the speaker look trashy, not that it was hurtful to negros, but it was still not a nice word. African Americans of the day did not casually refer to black people as niggers. [Sorjourner Truth](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/sojtruth-woman.asp)says “Negro” in a speech where “nigger” would have worked quite well, if it was an ordinary, everyday word. And even if she did say “nigger” (because it was a transcribed speech) the transcriber preferred “negro”, which creates the same implication. “Nigger” has never been a polite term. It may have been more common, but it wasn’t polite, and certainly not respectful. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/74 "2013-07-01T14:48:02Z")
I grew up in 40s in Sierra Leone, West Africa, where my father was posted as an army officer. We were surrounded by native Africans from many tribes but they were never, to my recollection, described as ‘niggers’. I read Enid Blyton’s book ‘Ten little niggers’ and used the eeny meeny miny moe rhyme to choose sides, but I at least, never associated it with the black and brown people I saw every day. The local population were referred to as ‘natives’ and addressed by name, mostly. I clearly remember my older sister getting into trouble for shouting ‘Boy’ when she wanted our houseboy - he was Mohammed, and an employee. (And not a young girl’s personal servant). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/75 "2013-07-01T16:02:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Its logic 101. The fact an unpolite term derives from a polite term means nothing (well little) about the unpolite term. It does not somehow prove the unpolite term is unpolite because it came from the more polite one. What kinda meaningless logic is that? > > Now if you want to argue that negro was NEVER a more polite form to start with (at least in certain circles), that’s a different kettle of fish. > > I am going off of decades old memories here and I would never claim I had the pulse on American culture, but I do seem to recall some folks of a certain persuasion being preferred to be called negro rather than black (and Africian American had not taken off yet). > > Oh, wait, what’s the name of that college fund? Oh, yeah. The United NEGRO College Fund. We’re in an apples/oranges thing here. No one is claiming the unpolite term is unpolite because it came from the more polite one, nor that “negro” was not polite. **Nava** (if I understand her correctly) and I are talking about the timing/history of “nigger” vis-a-vis “negro” relative to this: **“Part of the claim they were making was that nigger was the polite term before negro was”** (underlining mine). Our point is that “nigger” could not have been a polite term – or any kind of term – BEFORE “negro” was because the term “nigger” didn’t even exist before the term “negro.” As you say, Logic 101, but looking at a different aspect from what you appear to be addressing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/76 "2013-07-01T16:18:57Z")
Two anecdotes from literature - [ul][li]In Arthur C. Clarke’s novel _Childhood’s End_, after the aliens arrive, “n_gger" has become the commonly accepted term for black people. It didn’t sound plausible to me either.[/li][li]In C.S.Forrester’s excellent novel The General, there is a brief aside where someone refers to a candidate for a promotion by saying "works like a n_gger, and plenty of brains”. This is the only example I have encountered in which the term is used as part of a compliment, and it is not addressed to, or in the presence of, any black people. [/ul]I have heard the term used semi-descriptively. My late grandmother told use that, in her youth, she referred to Brazil nuts as “n_gger toes" and to the balcony in movie theaters as "n_gger heaven”. But she recognized, later, that this was offensive, and AFAIK no black person ever requested to be addressed as “n\*gger” - first it was Negro, then colored, then Afro-American, then black, then African American.[/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/77 "2013-07-01T16:21:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > My late grandmother told use that, in her youth, she referred to Brazil nuts as “n\*gger toes” Heck, I grew up in the 80s and I’ve heard them referred to as “nigger toes,” too, and was familiar with the “catch a nigger by his toe” version of “Eeny Meeny Meinie Moe.” ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/78 "2013-07-01T17:26:19Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > I suppose that back around the Civil War to turn of the century the “n” word was somewhat neutral. Mark Twain used it in his novels without disrespect. The nuances of language change over time. > [@Napier](#): > > I remember Twain using the word regarding the character Jim, in Huckleberry Finn (hope I remember correctly). I think Twain meant no disrespect himself toward black people, but he did mean his characters to use the word disrespectfully – and Twain himself was being disrespectful of people who used the word. > > That said, the word was not loaded in the same way then that it is now. On the one hand, it was used much more often, and might be used in a way that was fairly neutral regarding the intent to be disrespectful (though never used by whites in a way that was intended to be respectful per se). This seems to imply using the word was less harmful then than now. On the other hand, its use fit into a bigger system of abuse of black people, and the ease with which white people used it reinforced how pervasive and complete this system was, which in a sense made its use more harmful then. At least, this is how it seems to me. I agree with Napier. I recently read all of Twains novels (a well-spent $2.50, gotta love e-readers) and just finished “Roughing It” one of his first major pieces. In the novels, he’s pretty consistent, “nigger” is nearly always used by someone who is (often unconsciously) denegrating black people. More interestingly, in “Roughing It”, he uses the word quite unconsiously, reflecting the mores of the times, and generally, showing how little regard was held (by both society and himself) for the lives and hardships of blacks. It seems to me that between then (1871) and Tom Sawyer (1876) and especially Huck Finn (1884) he became acutely aware of the social condition of blacks and the inhumanity of their treatment. I’m from an upper-middle-class family in a rather segregated city, but spent a lot of time from ages 6 through 13 at the local YCMA, where I swam and played pool with a lot of kids from (literally) the other side of the river. This was in the 60’s. No evidence of anyone ever using the term as a mark of respect, or demanding it, that I can recall. I think I would have remembered it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/79 "2013-07-01T17:58:54Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:76, topic:662135”] Two anecdotes from literature - [ul][li]In Arthur C. Clarke’s novel _Childhood’s End_, after the aliens arrive, “n_gger" has become the commonly accepted term for black people. It didn’t sound plausible to me either.[/li][li]In C.S.Forrester’s excellent novel The General, there is a brief aside where someone refers to a candidate for a promotion by saying "works like a n_gger, and plenty of brains”. This is the only example I have encountered in which the term is used as part of a compliment, and it is not addressed to, or in the presence of, any black people. [/ul][/li][/QUOTE] Both of those examples are from British authors and either during or soon after the British colonial period, so they could be considered a separate issue from American use of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135/80 "2013-07-02T10:47:20Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Did anyone here read _Gone With the Wind_? The term was an everyday word. I never read the book, but I do know that the filmmakers specifically agreed to not include the word nigger anywhere in the movie. I don’t know if it was a one-to-one replacement but they do use the term “darkies” several times. Personally I find darkies to be so ridiculously ole’ timey and quaint as to be funny in an obviously politically incorrect way. [Several Monty Python sketches used it effectively.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sstrj15XpWQ) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/check-my-intuition-here-the-n-word-was-never-respectful-correct/662135.md?page=5)