# "Cheers" was an Autistic child's dream. (Possible spoilers of old 80s shows). **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 28, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832 "2014-11-28T17:22:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/21 "2014-11-29T01:08:06Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > They forgot one, the most compelling one of all which proves that reality itself exists only in Tommy’s fevered imagination… > > **Cops** > > Remember, the X-Files had a cross-over episode with Cops, which means that Cops is a figment of Tommy’s imagination. But if Cops… a reality TV show that is based on real-world arrests… is in the Tommyverse, we _all_ are. > > … Whoa… They are missing quite a lot of shows, really. The master list (linked above) has 375 shows, while the wiki only has articles for 111 of them. And while your theory is fun, it doesn’t really fit. For a crossover to count, both have to be non-fictional within the other show’s universe. Since the COPS universe is our universe, and X-files is fictional in our universe, it doesn’t count. The same thing applies when shows and movies crossover with talk shows. We don’t suddenly think South Park is real because they has a bit set on Conan’s show, or because the Simpsons have appeared on David Letterman, right? Of course, it’s all in fun, so you can do what you want. But that’s what I imagine the “serious” fans would say. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/22 "2014-11-29T11:21:29Z")
What _I’d_ like to know is the continuing fascination with this minuscule bit of classic TV trivia…in particular, how _everyone_ not only feels compelled to take it so, _so_, **SO** seriously (I’ve not seen _one_ “geez, get a life, you guys” comment _anywhere_), but to map out each and every thread with the last least tiniest bit of possible relevance. I mean, I understand the desire to get worked up into a foaming-at-the-mouth overanalytical lather over certain subjects (case in point…well, me 🙂 ), but I’ve seen a hundred screwball twists like this on TV. TV has pretty much always been weird. I see something like KITT jumping 15 feet into the air with no visible means of propulsion or Sarah McKenzie getting psychic visions, and I’m like “whoa…okay, then”. Making this big Tommy Westphall list strikes me as a massive, endless treasure hunt with no prize at the end. It just doesn’t strike me as rewarding. And honestly, I think there’s a really simple explanation for the ending. St. Elsewhere is, in fact, fictional, but the vast majority of the events happening in it weren’t some little boy’s delusions. When the dad says “who knows what’s going on in his mind”, the implication is that _nobody knows_. I mean, think about it: what would an autistic boy know about medical terminology in the first place? The stories are works of fiction created by a talented writing staff, _unrelated_ to whatever this kid’s been dreaming. Here, I’ll put it another way: Suppose one day this boy, who’s a big boxing fan, writes out a fantasy about an unknown, spurred on by the recent death of a family member, getting the shot of his life against the world heavyweight champion who’s this terrifying force of nature believed by many to be utterly unbeatable. And the unknown gets pounded early, even getting knocked down, but manages to pull it together and score an unbelievable knockout and score the upset of the decade. Couple months later, Buster Douglas knocks out Mike Tyson. Wow, that must mean that the entire sport of boxing is a fantasy! Er…no. The underdog prevailing over the invincible champ is a common fantasy, an incredibly common trope, in fact. That a young boxing fan would come up with it is nothing special, and that real life would more or less follow suit at some unspecified point in the future is just a happy coincidence. (None other than Sports Illustrated had the headline “Rocky Lives”.) In fact, this wouldn’t even qualify as a neat coincidence since Tyson was clearly overconfident and unprepared, allowing Douglas to frustrate him for most of the fight; he wasn’t in any particular trouble prior to that knockdown. Bottom line, every TV show exists in someone’s imagination. That’s part of what makes it so appealing. And I think getting all up in arms over one random little boy’s imagination is giving him way too much credit. Oh, as for Newhart…in hindsight, and especially given how completely universally adored that ending was, I think the truth is nobody ever truly bought the show. I didn’t see the original Bob Newhart Show, but from what I’ve heard it was quite popular…so much so, in fact, that his fans flat-out refused to ever accept him in any other role. Typecasting, FanDumb, whichever. The final episode effectively stated that this was his one and only role, this was all he was and all he would ever be forever and ever, and anything you see to the contrary is just a crazy dream. That he never had any really major TV role after Newhart (yeah, I checked) supports this assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/23 "2014-11-29T11:55:36Z")
This whole theory [started in '02](http://dwaynemcduffie.com/?p=47). Ironically, given how it’s used as a semi-serious (if still funny) bit of trivia now, it was a reductio ad absurdum. The post was about how crossovers affected comic books, and the St. Elsewhere example was meant to show that that way lies madness. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/24 "2014-11-29T12:25:57Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > Making this big Tommy Westphall list strikes me as a massive, endless treasure hunt with no prize at the end. It just doesn’t strike me as rewarding. I think your overthinking it. Its just a fun game. Basically a more recent version of the [Sherlokian Game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlockian_game), or Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. The faux-seriousness is part of the fun. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/25 "2014-11-29T14:25:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > For a crossover to count, both have to be non-fictional within the other show’s universe. I would think the defining criterion be only in one direction. _St. Elsewhere_ being real in the _Cheers_ universe would mean _Cheers_ was included. But someone from another show being in the _St. Elsewhere_ show wouldn’t matter, since as mentioned above, that could just mean Tommy saw that TV show. **Czarcasm** ’s link to Tommy Westphall’s Universe doesn’t seem to distinguish those two cases, from what I can tell. They have it as _either one_ being non-fictional in the other, which is too permissive. It seems there would be three possible lists, then, depending on what you believe is required. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/26 "2014-11-29T14:37:01Z")
Didn’t it get resolved in the episode where all those characters woke up in bed with Suzanne Pleshette? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/27 "2014-11-29T15:03:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And it’s no longer Tommy Westphall’s World-It is now [Tommy Westphall’s Universe,](http://tommywestphall.wikia.com/wiki/Category:All_shows)it seems. 😃 But where did All Those Zombies come from, then? Or maybe it’s All Us Zombies… ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/28 "2014-11-29T15:27:10Z")
I thought Glenn on TWD delivered pizzas for a living - he was general manager of a car dealership? And I know autistic kids are supposed to be silent geniuses and prodigies trapped inside, but I always wondered how that autistic kid could possibly imagine that whole other world of St. Elsewhere. I should think he’d be too busy counting slats on the blinds or something more autistic kidlike. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/29 "2014-11-29T21:34:38Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That is truly the unintended consequence of St Elsewhere’s ending. However, one could argue Cheers and their staff and customers were real and maybe somewhere the family went, that he integrated into his fantasy. > [@Biggirl](#): > > The autistic kid could have visited the Cheers bar and incorporated that in his snowglobe fantasy. > ETA: Or what IvoryTD said a minute before me. Or that, you know, he had seen an episode of Cheers and incorporated it into his fantasy. He was fanficing before fanficing was cool! ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/30 "2014-11-29T22:02:49Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Or that, you know, he had seen an episode of Cheers and incorporated it into his fantasy. He was fanficing before fanficing was cool! From **Skywatcher** ’s link (which I incorrectly called **Czarcasm** ’s link in my earleir post): > [@](#): > > In “Cheers”, doctors Westphall, Craig and Auschlander pop into the bar from Cheers for a drink, meeting Carla (Rhea Perlman), Norm (George Wendt) and Cliff (John Ratzenberger) in the process. So in the show _Cheers_, the _St. elsewhere_ doctors appear. How can that be Tommy’s fantasy? There’s a difference between _St. elsewhere_ appearing in some other show, and some other show appearing in _St. elsewhere_. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/31 "2014-11-29T22:06:16Z")
What if the dream was fan-fiction? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/32 "2014-11-30T08:29:27Z")
If we shadows have offended,  Think but this, and all is mended—  That you have but slumbered here  While these visions did appear.  And this weak and idle theme,  No more yielding but a dream ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/33 "2014-11-30T17:07:56Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > From **Skywatcher** ’s link (which I incorrectly called **Czarcasm** ’s link in my earleir post): > So in the show _Cheers_, the _St. elsewhere_ doctors appear. How can that be Tommy’s fantasy? There’s a difference between _St. elsewhere_ appearing in some other show, and some other show appearing in _St. elsewhere_. Didn’t the [crossover](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0707897/) happen on _St. Elsewhere_? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/34 "2014-11-30T17:34:07Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > From **Skywatcher** ’s link (which I incorrectly called **Czarcasm** ’s link in my earleir post): > So in the show _Cheers_, the _St. elsewhere_ doctors appear. How can that be Tommy’s fantasy? The theory is that any show with a crossover is part of Tommy’s fantasy. So, the doctors visit Cheers, Frasier is a spin-off from Cheers, Niles and Daphne made a cameo appearance in _Caroline in the City_, thus the conclusion is that CITC is Tommy’s dream. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/35 "2014-11-30T17:47:42Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Didn’t the [crossover](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0707897/) happen on _St. Elsewhere_? That does change things, and **TBG** ’s point is valid. I thought that ‘In “Cheers”’ meant in the show _Cheers_, but re-reading, I guess it’s the title of the _St. Elsewhere_ episode. > [@Peter Morris](#): > > The theory is that any show with a crossover is part of Tommy’s fantasy. I guess that’s the theory, but it seems unjustified. In _Babylon 5_, one of the characters likes Daffy Duck, but that doesn’t make _Babylon 5_ a cartoon. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/36 "2014-11-30T17:56:11Z")
That’s a completely different thing. Daffy Duck is fictional within B5\*. But Cheers is real within St Elsewhere. Also, they’ve excluded cartoons, hence The Simpsons is excluded, even though it has crossed over with Cheers and X-files. \*I assume. Unless he actually visited the station. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/37 "2014-11-30T18:06:16Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > That’s a completely different thing. Daffy Duck is fictional within B5\*. But Cheers is real within St Elsewhere. isn’t the point of the ending that essentially all of _St. Elsewhere_ is fictional? Regardless, having an autistic kid imagine something about a TV show is not at all the same as having _St. Elsewhere_ appear in that show. Just counting all crossovers is kind of pointless. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/38 "2014-11-30T18:27:44Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > From **Skywatcher** ’s link (which I incorrectly called **Czarcasm** ’s link in my earleir post): > So in the show _Cheers_, the _St. elsewhere_ doctors appear. How can that be Tommy’s fantasy? There’s a difference between _St. elsewhere_ appearing in some other show, and some other show appearing in _St. elsewhere_. Because the characters from _St. Elsewhere_ only exist in Tommy’s mind. If they appear in a show, then that show must also be a part of Tommy’s mind. That’s how crossover universes work. If a character from one show exists in another show, then both shows take place in the same universe. They are applying this logic to Tommy’s dream. Of course, the flaw with doing that is that Tommy could just be dreaming about real people, or even be dreaming about a TV show he watched, mixing in other characters that may or may not be real. This works whether it’s someone appearing in _St. Elsewhere_ or someone from _St. Elsewhere_ appearing elsewhere. When I was a kid, I had a dream about the villain characters from the **Babes in Toyland** with Drew Barrymore. They were in my kitchen, and my mom made us eat breakfast before they could terrorize me. My kitchen and mother are real, and those villains do not exist in the same universe. Crossover rules really only works if everything is real relative to the respective universes. That’s why people “cheat” in with Tommy’s universe. They establish that something is in the same universe as _St. Elsewhere_ as if it is real in its own universe, but then use the last episode to say it isn’t real. If you acknowledge that St. Elsewhere (save the last few minutes) isn’t really the entire time, the whole thing breaks down, as I have already illustrated. That’s why I said it’s just a bunch of people having fun, and that you can make your own rules. Mine is that, other than _St. Elsewhere_ itself, all parts must be real in both universes. Otherwise, things shown to just be on TV in one universe count. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/39 "2014-11-30T18:58:06Z")
So, since **Cheers** exists as part of Tommy’s mind, and Cliff appeared on _Jeopardy!_, does that mean Alex Trebek is a figment of Tommy’s imagination, also? Whoa! Mind blown. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832/40 "2014-11-30T19:08:22Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > From **Skywatcher** ’s link (which I incorrectly called **Czarcasm** ’s link in my earleir post): > So in the show _Cheers_, the _St. elsewhere_ doctors appear. How can that be Tommy’s fantasy? There’s a difference between _St. elsewhere_ appearing in some other show, and some other show appearing in _St. elsewhere_. No. You have it backwards. On the show St. Elsewhere, the doctors went to Cheers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheers-was-an-autistic-childs-dream-possible-spoilers-of-old-80s-shows/705832.md?page=3)