# "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 27, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340 "2003-01-27T21:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/121 "2003-01-30T09:23:33Z")
So, lets label an entire nation based on the actions of their government without their consent. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/122 "2003-01-30T10:15:26Z")
What bugs me about the attitudes in this thread is that, despite the immense railing against stereotypes on this board in our “War on Ignorance” ;), this particular stereotype seems OK with many people. “But it’s just a joke!” people cry. But there are different kinds of intranational jokes. Some are a gentle poking of fun, and then there are jokes about Germans being Nazis, Irish being drunken terrorists, Americans being obese and ignorant, Poles being stupid, etc. They’re not funny. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to argue against French foreign policy, as I would on many an occasion, but it’s also perfectly feasible to do so without bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/123 "2003-01-30T10:25:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*You’re right. That could get pretty nasty… > > Of course, to defuse the situation, you just have to yell “ACHTUNG! GEFAHR! KAPITULATION” and watch the hands fly up. \*\* Of course, you could always go to Times Square and yell “Watch out! The planes are coming!” and watch all the cowardly Americans jump into the sewer. Ha ha ha ha! How terribly funny. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/124 "2003-01-30T10:45:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pucky Schumer \* > \*\*Just read that a French newspaper had a photo from the Ivory Coast, where France has sent troops into the middle of the rebellion. The photo has an Ivorian holding a sign pleading for Bush to intervene and calling Chirac a butcher. \*\* Here it is [http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2135923](http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2135923) Click to enlarge ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/125 "2003-01-30T11:12:03Z")
BTW, I’m absolutely no fan of the French government, but I don’t judge the french people I know by the actions of Chirac, any more than I would want to be judged on the actions of Ahern’s government. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/126 "2003-01-30T11:13:32Z")
To reiterate: according to [this website](http://www.ppu.org.uk/war/facts/www00-95a.html), France lost **650,000** people during WW2. To put that into context, note that the US “only” lost 408,000. [France’s population](http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/francec.htm) in 1940 was about 50m. [The USA’s](http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Americas/usac.htm) was about 132m. This means France had a death rate over four times that of the US as a result of WW2. You might want to think about that next time you make jokes about “surrender” and making things nice for the Nazis. Not only is it extremely tactless and offensive to all those people who fought and died, it doesn’t even reflect reality. **gobear** - I think you’re somewhat missing the point. The French government does some pretty shitty things. Hell - the French _people_ do some pretty shitty things. So do the English. So do the Americans. None of that has anything to do with this “my country owns your country” attitude we see so often on these boards whenever the French are discussed. To bring out one of **jjimm’s** earlier points: how would you all feel if _every single bloody time_ the US was so much as _mentioned_ on the SD there was a rush 10 or 20 posters starting in with jokes about Nicaragua, Vietnam and calling you all smelly, unpleasant burger-munching jingoistic xenophobes? Even if most of the people doing so were doing it in jest? It’s tired, it’s old and it’s offensive. And **yojimboguy**? No offense and I know you meant well, but the part of your post addressed to **Fran** has got to be one of the most patronising things I’ve ever seen on these boards. And not even based on a correct premise. Where in the hell did you get the idea that she was living in France? Does one have to _live_ in a country to recognise bigotry against it now? And is it so very hard to believe that one can understand the cultural context behind the bigotry and _still_ find it unpleasant? Your post indicates that you too find such things unfunny and tired, so I’ve no wish to pick a fight. But I gotta tell you - I almost gasped when I read the tone of that post. I’m sure such was _not_ your intention, which is why I’m passing this information on for future reference. pan ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/127 "2003-01-30T12:18:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*…and three guesses who sold the Iraqis the defensive capability with which they failed to defend the plant. Furthermore, the French government sold Israel _its_ nuclear power plant at Dimona (from which the Israelis created their illegal nukes). > > Everyone’s hands are dirty in this case. \*\* You’re right. I can see the equivalence behind selling a nation conventional arms and selling two nations the equipment and materials to build nuclear arms. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by leander_ > **Of course, you could always go to Times Square and yell “Watch out! The planes are coming!” and watch all the cowardly Americans jump into the sewer.** You could, but it wouldn’t make any sense. Unless I’m mistaken, cowardly Americans jumping into sewers isn’t a funny stereotype. Much better would be something like going to Times Square to yell “Watch out for the planes!” and watching the Americans drop their burgers and shield themselves with flags. Or something along those lines. See how that works? We have the burger stereotype and the jingoistic flag-waving stereotype. The essence of high comedy. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/128 "2003-01-30T12:23:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*You’re right. I can see the equivalence behind selling a nation conventional arms and selling two nations the equipment and materials to build nuclear arms. \*\* _Sigh_ I reiterate: [everyone’s hands are dirty](http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/whoarmediraq.pdf) [pdf]. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/129 "2003-01-30T12:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless I’m mistaken, cowardly Americans jumping into sewers isn’t a funny stereotype. Much better would be something like going to Times Square to yell “Watch out for the planes!” and watching the Americans drop their burgers and shield themselves with flags. Or something along those lines. See how that works? We have the burger stereotype and the jingoistic flag-waving stereotype. The essence of high comedy. then can you see why is it’s not funny to stereotype the French? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/130 "2003-01-30T13:18:19Z")
And another thing - no more Americans going onto French message boards to post nasty things about the French. I see this happening all the time…and it’s _got to stop._ ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/131 "2003-01-30T13:31:29Z")
Jesus, you guys are some thickheaded fucks. Yes a lot of you were joking, yes you can slag them off, yes some of the French governments behaviour has been disgraceful, yes some did horrible things during WWII **but** that doesn’t change the fact that there does seem to be a mindset of “We went over and won the war single handed no thanks to those cowardly French” or other nonsense with similar meanings. I and obviously a lot of other posters have picked up on that trend even here a supposed bastion of enlightenment :rolleyes: If you say it enough some idiots are going to start believing it and I personally think it’s been said enough. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/132 "2003-01-30T13:33:58Z")
Jack, explain why this board is the exclusive domain of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/133 "2003-01-30T13:36:25Z")
of course, if you are being serious and there is nothing between your words, I’ll retract my question. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/134 "2003-01-30T13:39:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by leander \* > \*\*Of course, you could always go to Times Square and yell “Watch out! The planes are coming!” and watch all the cowardly Americans jump into the sewer. > > Ha ha ha ha! How terribly funny. \*\* Well, first of all, that’s not even a parallel joke, since that has nothing to do with a joke stereotype. A parallel joke about Americans would have something to do with a stereotype of Americans. Secondly, you need a sense of humour to make funny jokes. Some jokes are funny. Some are not. This may amaze you, but sometimes one joke is funny and another is not even when they bear certain similarities. Some jokes can be offensive AND funny. Some jokes are offensive and are not funny. It depends on the context and that ever-elusive sense of humour thing. . ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/135 "2003-01-30T13:40:08Z")
This thread was all a bit of an over-reaction when it was only about a throwaway gag on The Simpsons, but recently there’s been some rather ugly comments and generalisations made. It does strike me as somewhat hypocritical, particularly considering the shitstorm that was [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=120990&highlight=america). And how about the reaction that [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=115895&highlight=america) got? It seems a lot of people here can dish it out much easier than they can take it. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/136 "2003-01-30T13:46:35Z")
No no **Twisty** , he’s right - it is _perfectly_ OK to be a bigot as long as you keep your perpetuation of bigotry within your own country’s borders. Anyone who comes to your country is _just asking for it_, dude. Let the fuckers have it! No wait… that’s not right, is it? Jingoism is nasty, pettry and obnoxious whether one encounters it at home or elsewhere. Sorry **Jack** , looks like your point is complete assanine crap after all. Ah well, back to the drawing board. pan ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/137 "2003-01-30T13:48:56Z")
Gex, its not got to do with the gag on the Simpsons, but the fact it is continually used to perpetuate an unfair stereotype. Frannie started it as a reaction to the constant stereotype against the French. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/138 "2003-01-30T14:00:57Z")
**gex gex** , thank you for that research. I should add that **Lobsang** , formerly **Lobley** , has recanted and apologised for those threads. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/139 "2003-01-30T14:03:08Z")
**gex gex** what the fuck does that have to do with anything? Has anyone said that there isn’t bullshit being thrown around about Americans? What is this a playground? I’ve been searching for a thread(must have been lost in one of the crashes but I remember it well) all morning where one of our French posters said how they had problems with American policy and was insulted for being French in a very offensive manner by several posters to prove that it’s not just about a Simpson’s quote. It’s about a attitude a lot of people seem to be exhibited on this board and beyond it. It’s nasty, it’s wrong and above all when related to this site it pig fucking ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/140 "2003-01-30T14:05:03Z")
I should proof read more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340.md?page=8)