# "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 27, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340 "2003-01-27T21:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Tomcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/161 "2003-01-30T15:33:45Z")
**Francesca & Twisty** , yes, I do see your points. I’m saying that hte new information I have is going along to perpetuate the myth, to a minor degree. How minor? Well, about as heavy and influential as calling someone a surrender monkey is. Capitulation today is just one step away from surrendering in my eyes. Laying down and letting Saddam have his way is surrendering. He has thumbed his nose at the UN many times, and needs to be brought down for that. And yes, I feel France and Germany should be supporting that, not making yielding noises. We are not going to give up, we are going to win, and those fuckers should be supporting us. Pardon my French. (HA!) I guess I am trying to defend the use of stereotypes in these lighthearted ways as a way to blow off steam and categorize a country either politically or culturally. I see your views as being overly confining, essentially saying that you cannot use stereotypes, ever. Or, otherwise put, please give me a stereotype of the French that applies to most, if not all of them, that we can use? I don’t think you can, but you most definitely can make stereotypes of other countries based on their politics, cultural aspects, etc. No these do not apply to everyone, but it gives one a way of categorizing the situations that people live under. That is why you can stereotype an entire populace based on policies. You are generally using it to say something against the group, not the individual. In this one instance a stereotype was immortalized by a cartoon character. When people quote it they are saying A) I’m a Simpson’s freak B) the French are wimps. Maybe “capitulation monkeys” would be more appropriate (thanks for the stats **kabbes** ), but that’s not what was said by Willie. Yes, overusing it can get pretty old, so I will cede that point and refrain from using it. But if I hear another catchy fraise that sums up my distaste for the French and German policies, I will use it, stereotype or not. **kabbes** of course you are right, the label matters less than the content. But it is still the label that catches your eye and causes one to look deeper. You have to admit that you probably schooled more people because of this remark than you would have if it never existed. I just wish Willie had said “Wine swilling surrender monkeys” about the Slovaks… ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/162 "2003-01-30T15:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\*Hypocrisy check: I still have not seen those decrying the French crack, call out those who intentionally made “bigoted” comments (by your own broad definition) against other counties in this thread. You cannot have it both ways if that truly is your definition. The thread is still open. Call them out. \*\* Because in context, its purpose is to make a point. As in “how would you like it if I…” And it’s _not meant_. Which is why it hasn’t been decried. If this stuff were put in other contexts on this board, it would get piled on. But if similar stuff is applied to the French, everyone giggles like schoolchildren. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/163 "2003-01-30T15:35:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Speaking of dirty hands- those who were intentionally “bigoted” remarks about other countries “to make a point” should be ashamed of themselves. The 9-11 joke was especially despicable. In doing these things, you simply have intentionally become what you claim to deplore. This is _exactly the point_. To show up just how bigoted such jokes are. You don’t find them funny because they make fun of tradgedy or faults in your country. See how funny jokes about what cowards the French are after their massive losses in WW2 are now? ---
**Author:** ![stofsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@stofsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stofsky)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/164 "2003-01-30T15:38:26Z")
This is the first (and perhaps last) time I’ve agreed with **Sam Stone** , but the OP in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=134038&perpage=50&highlight=straightdope%20offenderati&pagenumber=1) bears reading. And to paraphrase Jimmy Kimmel, I love the French. I love their fries, their bread, their toast, their dressing, their horns, the cut of their panties, their kisses, and their yellow mustard. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/165 "2003-01-30T15:40:55Z")
All you Americans making fun of the French should be ashamed of yourselves. You NEVER hear French people making fun of Americans, DO you? How would you like it if the French treated Americans like a bunch of crass, crude, uncultured, uncivilized, trigger-happy maniacs? But of course, the French are FAR too nice to say (or even imply!) such a thing. At all times, the French show the utmost respect for America and American culture. (GAG!) ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/166 "2003-01-30T15:43:18Z")
While the US has some of the most brilliant minds in the world among it’s citizenry. Sadly, we also have some of the most ignorant fucking people the world has ever seen. What makes it worse is the fact that most of these people don’t seem to recognize the harm they inflict by spreading this shit around. I wouldn’t let the simple minds and childish intellects get the better of me. I was raised with “All in the Family” and “The Jefferson’s” etc. I understand the humor, I get the jokes, I know plenty myself…BUT I refuse to purposely add fuel to the fire of bigotry and ignorance. To those of US (the human race), who don’t understand this, you are part of the problem…it’s not funny anymore, in other words: Shut the fuck up already! or does DNFTT apply here? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/167 "2003-01-30T15:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > And yes, I feel France and Germany should be supporting that, not making yielding noises. We are not going to give up, we are going to win, and those fuckers should be supporting us. This is the thing. I see France and Germany (perhaps stubbornly) supporting the UN, rather than join the US snowball. They are not ruling out the possibility of action, but they really want to leave it to a last resort. And Rumsfeld’s “Old Europe” crack sure ain’t going to help. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/168 "2003-01-30T15:56:58Z")
Wait wait wait, jjimm and Francesca: You guys can make jokes to illustrate your point (that they’re evil filthy nasty satan words), but we can’t make jokes to illustrate our point (that they’re funny and we like to laugh)? See my other post about stereotypes. We’re not laughing because we think all French people eat cheese and wave white flags, we’re laughing at how ridiculous it is to imply that. Jesus, try not to slip getting off those horses, it’s a looooong way down. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/169 "2003-01-30T15:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > All you Americans making fun of the French should be ashamed of yourselves. > > You NEVER hear French people making fun of Americans, DO you? How would you like it if the French treated Americans like a bunch of crass, crude, uncultured, uncivilized, trigger-happy maniacs? > > But of course, the French are FAR too nice to say (or even imply!) such a thing. At all times, the French show the utmost respect for America and American culture. This sounds astonishingly like “They do it _tooooo_”, an argument which doesn’t hold much weight outside the playground. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/170 "2003-01-30T16:02:01Z")
The use of counterstereotypes was merely to attempt to get it into people’s thick heads the effect of that kind of thing… Gah! I give up. They just don’t get it. You just carry on with your stereotypes, they’re hilarious, and so are you. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/171 "2003-01-30T16:02:53Z")
Astorian, just for shits and giggles, could you show me anywhere on the board where crass overgeneralisations of Americans by French (or indeed, Non US citizens) posters have gone unchallenged? I’m not going to deny there are some stupid, ignorant and offensive attitudes towards Americans displayed on these boards, and we should (and I feel we do) speak out about them as much as in this thread, but saying “well, he called me names, so I can too” is not a very mature attitude to have. Ignorance cannot be fought with ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/172 "2003-01-30T16:04:03Z")
Cisco, there have been posters to this thread who are exactly trying to imply that. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/173 "2003-01-30T16:19:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Cisco, there have been posters to this thread who are exactly trying to imply that. \*\* OK, fair enough. Just let the record show that I’m not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/174 "2003-01-30T16:22:35Z")
I want to know _what_ 9-11 joke? Do you mean when I pointed out that the French saw their people wiped out by their neighbours to the tune of 130 World Trade Centres? That wasn’t a joke, mushbrain. That was illustrating the scale of the French losses. You mocking their loss is equivalent to mocking personal tragedy on the scale of _one hundred and thirty fucking times_ the scale of the WTC disaster. You’re damn fucking right that isn’t funny. Geez. “Illustration” is just a pretty word with 4 syllables to you people, in’t it? Or of course the principle feature of the books you read. Same goes for turning the “joke” tables on you. It was to show you just how _unfunny_ it is the other way round. There’s another point that just went sailing waaaaaaay over your respective heads though. Don’t you get it? It’s not that jokes based on stereotypes can’t be funny. It’s that when you keep on and on and on and on insisting on the same stereotype and that’s **all you ever say about the country** and **every time the country gets mentioned a great big pile of people appear to say it again and again and again** then (a) it starts to reflect very very poorly indeed upon you and (b) other people start to believe that the stereotype is the truth. And that’s how bigotry perpetuates itself. It’s how and why great segments of human population have been held as somehow sub-human by other segments of the human population for generations on end. There comes a time when a joke _just isn’t funny any more_. Learn it. pan ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/175 "2003-01-30T16:23:50Z")
Have we heard from one authentic French person decry this? Have we? If there is one thing that I am growing ever increasingly weary of, it’s those who take offence for others. “You CADS! How dare you insult that group of whom I do not belong, but chose to feel indignant for, in order to heighten my own feelings of moral superiority!” “HOW DARE YOU!” Shut the fucking fuck up already, unless it’s YOUR ethinc group/sexual orientation/ religion that is the butt of the joke, you self important fecies eating morons! Sheesh already. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/176 "2003-01-30T16:28:42Z")
kabbes - just out of curiosity - do you wake up some mornings and think to yourself, “Hmmm, I’m just not pissed off enough today, I think I’ll shove a few jalapenos up my ass before heading out and see if that helps.”? ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/177 "2003-01-30T16:32:45Z")
That’s it! Exactly! Jalapino ass. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/178 "2003-01-30T16:35:33Z")
God forbid someone should give a shit about another country. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/179 "2003-01-30T16:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Because in context, its purpose is to make a point. As in “how would you like it if I…” And it’s _not meant_. Which is why it hasn’t been decried. If this stuff were put in other contexts on this board, it would get piled on. > > But if similar stuff is applied to the French, everyone giggles like schoolchildren. \*\* No you don’t get it, it is the very depths of hypocritical behavior. To intentionally make “bigoted” and offensive statements as a “how do you like it” sort of argument is even worse then what you claim to be decrying. By your own standards, they are bigots. But unlike the other posters, they **intended** to be bigots. That is much worse. The other posters might not think those comments were possibly offensive. However, the “how do you like it” posters knew it was bigoted and offensive because they intended the comments to be taken that way. The “it was merely an example” excuse rings quite hollow, especially seeing your own attacks on the Simpons quote being “merely jokes” are not good enough defense. You cannot have it both ways. Allowing, supporting or defending intentionally offensive bigoted comments just because that poster supports your position is sad, and I expected more from you. This thread did reveal true bigotry (using your own definition), but it was not the posts about the French. The thread is still open, you can still prove me wrong and call them out. ---
**Author:** ![Mac\_Guffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mac\_Guffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mac_Guffin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340/180 "2003-01-30T16:40:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Francesca \* > \*\*God forbid someone should give a shit about another country. \*\* Giving a shit is one thing. Acting all offended over a stupid throw-away line and demand that all and sundry cease to use said line becouse of some supposed offence is idiotic, self important and everything else I said before. “I am not French, But IF I WAS, I’d be Offended!” Big whoop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys/151340.md?page=10)