# Chelation therapy reduces cardiovascular events for older patients with diabetes **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 23, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601 "2013-11-23T05:47:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/21 "2013-11-23T19:06:13Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Do you have an actual point? My only point is that you seem to be interpreting this study to seem more significant than it truly is. Fighting ignorance and all that. I swear, every time I attempt to explain what my very expensive PhD has taught me about science to laypeople - for free - all it does is piss them off. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/22 "2013-11-23T19:08:24Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > LOL. Keep trying to minimize the significance of the result. Fortunately you’re not one of the people who will be following up on this investigation. 😛 Oh, I’m sorry, you wanted agreement and support, not discussion. My bad. I hope you get what you’re looking for! ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/23 "2013-11-23T19:08:59Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > My only point is that you seem to be interpreting this study to seem more significant than it truly is. Fighting ignorance and all that. > > I swear, every time I attempt to explain what my very expensive PhD has taught me about science to laypeople - for free - all it does is piss them off. I’m well aware of the joys of the double blind controlled study thank you but kudos for trying to educate the unwashed masses. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/24 "2013-11-23T19:10:56Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Oh, I’m sorry, you wanted agreement and support, not discussion. My bad. I hope you get what you’re looking for! I actually don’t want anything and would have been perfectly happy if there had been no responses to my post at all. I put this out there for general edification not because I have any sort of agenda. You seem to have difficulty believing that. That however would be your problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/25 "2013-11-23T19:17:40Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > I actually don’t want anything and would have been perfectly happy if there had been no responses to my post at all. I put this out there for general edification not because I have any sort of agenda. You seem to have difficulty believing that. That however would be your problem, not mine. Well, unfortunately, that’s not how message boards work. People see posts and respond to them, see, and sometimes those responses aren’t just “I agree.” Sometimes, people will want to discuss the problems or issues raised in the original post. And sometimes, people will point out that in fact, the original post doesn’t really edify, as in this case. You claim that the results of this study are significant, others claim otherwise. And that seems to bother you so much that your responses begin to degenerate into personal insults and tantrum. In any event, I doubt that the results of this particular part of the larger study will be replicated. If they are, that still doesn’t automatically mean that chelation therapy will be approved for “treatment” of cardiovascular issues in those with diabetes, since an underlying biological mechanism still needs to be identified. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/26 "2013-11-23T19:22:17Z")
Who are these “others” you keep referring to pray tell. It seems to me that you’re the one who’s desperate to prove something, not me. But thanks for the lecture on message board form and etiquette. After nearly 4k posts here and countless more elsewhere I hadn’t really figured most of that out already. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :smack: :smack: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/27 "2013-11-23T19:24:53Z")
\ I’m not the only one who’s said to you, in this thread, that these results are not as significant as you’d like them to be. But by all means, please continue to focus your temper tantrum on me to the exclusion of others. Enjoy yourself. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/28 "2013-11-23T19:27:45Z")
And by all means, continue to characterize my reactions to your apparent prejudices as “temper tantrums.” I get that a lot so I’m used to it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/29 "2013-11-23T19:44:20Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > I’m well aware of the joys of the double blind controlled study thank you but kudos for trying to educate the unwashed masses. Exactly what was that I said in this thread that was so offensive that it prompted such sneering sarcasm? I’m genuinely baffled here. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/30 "2013-11-23T19:52:48Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Exactly what was that I said in this thread that was so offensive that it prompted such sneering sarcasm? I’m genuinely baffled here. Nothing. I apologize. I suppose I was responding to the general tone of the responses I was getting. As I’ve already said, I understand that chelation therapy, when used for things like cardiovascular disease is generally and rightly considered quackery. However we must always be aware of the limits of our knowledge, which is far more restrictive than we often like to admit. Anyone, even a layperson such as myself, who follows the science press understands how frequently previously held notions of what is unassailable dogma gets turned on its head. So the point is, remain skeptical, but keep an open mind. edit: [in that regard, here’s an interesting article everyone should read](https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/context/replacing-paradigms-requires-open-minds) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/31 "2013-11-23T21:56:36Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > So the point is, remain skeptical, but keep an open mind. People often say this, aiming it at scientists - the implication being that science is closeminded and refuses to consider…whatever the person who says this wants them to consider. (By the way, I’m not saying that you are one of these people, or that this is your intent - seeing this comment just reminded me of this general phenomenon) The thing is, science is inherently open-minded. It genuinely is driven by the data. It works very hard to be unbiased and accept anything that is or can be proven. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/32 "2013-11-23T22:03:13Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > The thing is, science is inherently open-minded. Science is, but scientists are only human. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/33 "2013-11-23T22:08:50Z")
No argument here. It’s not a perfect system, but it’s pretty damn good, and it’s the best we’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/34 "2013-11-23T22:29:02Z")
I know. I’m not arguing either, but that doesn’t mean that periodic reminders aren’t warranted and shouldn’t be given serious heed. Kuhn’s book, referenced in the article cited in my edit is testimony to that fact and I’m sure you must be aware of the fact that mini-revolutions get played out in journals every month. ---
**Author:** ![Anaglyph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anaglyph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaglyph)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/35 "2013-11-24T16:30:12Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > [This is as bizarre as it is striking](http://www.nih.gov/news/health/nov2013/nccam-19.htm), at least in my opinion and there doesn’t seem to be any indication as yet as to what mechanism may be involved. From the NIH:Full story at link including an explanation of chelation therapy and the fact that it’s not currently approved for this use. Well - EDTA binds a wide variety of divalent cations, including Ca2+ ions. Ca2+ ions are needed for blood clotting - you can prevent blood from clotting by addition of EDTA. So EDTA should act as a “blood thinner” - It would be interesting to see how chelation terapy compares to more specific blood thinners. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/36 "2013-11-24T16:50:05Z")
That’s interesting because there’s a [new study involving vitamin D](http://www.d2dstudy.org/about/) to see if it prevents people who are pre-diabetic from progressing to type II and of course one of the many functions of vitamin D is calcium absorption as well as[regulating blood levels of calcium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D). ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/37 "2013-11-24T17:20:36Z")
Since this is a medical thread, moved to IMHO (from MPSIMS). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/38 "2013-11-24T21:39:50Z")
Very interesting **deltasigma** , albeit still far from definitive. I’d wonder about putting it in context of [studies](http://www.clinchem.org/content/51/7/1201.long) [which](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20050877) [suggest](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304416508001001) that higher (but still normal range) iron stores may interfer with insulin sensitivity and increase cardiometabolic risk factors and that lowering iron stores with regular blood donation lowers those risks and further that regular blood donation is also associated with [dramatically decreased](http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/148/5/445.long) heart disease rates. Chelation also lowers iron stores. Now none of that is definitive either, far from it, but it does suggest a biologically plausible mechanism, a context in which to place it, and an alternative path to the same place that avoids the known serious risks and cost of chelation therapy with something that both costs nothing other than time and simultaneously serves a pro-social good. Donate blood regularly. Win-win. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/39 "2013-11-24T21:52:10Z")
Ah! Another very good more recent pertinent [article](http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/10/54) and [editorial](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409018/)! From the editorial: > [@](#): > > In patients with metabolic syndrome, body iron overload exacerbates insulin resistance, impairment of glucose metabolism, endothelium dysfunction and coronary artery responses. Conversely, iron depletion is effective to ameliorate glucose metabolism and dysfunctional endothelium. Most of its effectiveness seems to occur through the amelioration of systemic and hepatic insulin resistance. > > In a study published by BMC Medicine, Michalsen et al. demonstrated a dramatic improvement of blood pressure, serum glucose and lipids after removing 550 to 800 ml of blood in subjects with metabolic syndrome. This effect was apparently independent of changes in insulin resistance, in contrast to previous cross-sectional and cohort studies investigating the association between iron overload, insulin resistance and cardiovascular disease. … In conclusion, findings from Michalsen’s study give new perspectives for prevention and treatment of the metabolic syndrome demonstrating that repeated phlebotomies, a low-cost and minimally invasive technique, are effective in reducing blood pressure with a mechanism that is independent of insulin resistance. Routine phlebotomies in these patients may enormously reduce health care costs related to the epidemic metabolic syndrome and, importantly, also contribute to increase the rate of blood donations. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601/40 "2013-11-24T22:10:51Z")
That BMC article was actually reference in a [New Scientist article](http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628912.200-bloodletting-return-of-a-radical-remedy.html?full=true&print=true) as it happens. It might not be generally accessible but here is the relevant quote. > [@](#): > > It almost sounds too good to be true, but earlier this year, a study suggested it could, in fact, be that easy ([_BMC Medicine_](http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/10/54), vol 10, p 54). The trial involved 64 obese people with metabolic syndrome. Half had 300 millilitres of blood withdrawn at the start of the trial and a further 250 to 500 taken a month later. Six weeks from the start, those who had undergone two bleedings had improved blood pressure, cholesterol and glucose levels. > It is only one trial, of course, and a small, short-term one at that - further work is needed to see if the effect is real. But the results chime with a couple of other small studies that show bloodletting benefits people with [high blood pressure](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=zidek%20tenschert%20karoff) or [diabetes](http://dx.doi.org/10.2337/diabetes.51.4.1000). Given that rising rates of obesity and its knock-on effects are arguably the western world’s biggest health problem, perhaps this line of investigation should be prioritised. “It would have a big impact on public health if this is borne out,” says Andreas Michalsen, a physician at the Charité-University Medical Centre in Berlin, Germany, who led the recent trial. > In the meantime, anyone with high iron levels and metabolic syndrome or fatty liver disease who finds it hard to switch to a healthier diet might want to consider donating blood as often as it is safe to do so, suggests Michalsen. In the UK, men are allowed to donate once every three months and women once every four months. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chelation-therapy-reduces-cardiovascular-events-for-older-patients-with-diabetes/674601.md?page=3)