# Chen019: A bigger fool that follows other fools **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909 "2011-06-18T04:40:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/1 "2011-06-18T04:40:13Z")
> **[Are environmentalists cowards on immigration?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=612003)** > > It seems to me that they might be. Where is the Sierra Club on this issue? In fairness, I can see they’re torn like this guy between their concern for the environment and being accused of prejudice, but surely they can make their case on a... Our resident fool just can not notice when his mild evil schemes are being hijacked by someone more evil. [QUOTE=Chen019] You’re missing the point - I’m talking about environmentalists and the issue of immigration. What is your objection to population growth being reduced via immigration reductions to the US? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=GIGObuster] The fact that it would not make a dent with the main issue [Global Warming], and that is also because only with magic one would remove the descendants of the immigrants. And as mentioned many times before: > [@](#): > > “Immigration control is a foolish way to create an environmental perspective,” says Adam Werbach, who was the president of the Sierra Club in 1998. “It attacks people who are suffering, it allows people who are rich to be unaccountable, it’s out of touch with the realities of changing demographics, and it’s terrifically unpopular.” Hence the need to deal with population as a whole. And at the same time tackle the issue globally. The evil, as it is sad for you for some reason, is not really coming from the nativists, as they have lost support I say “meh” to their efforts, the nativists are nowadays being used by truly devious merchants of doubt. [/QUOTE] [http://www.usatoday.com/money/books/reviews/2010-06-01-deathmerchants01\_ST\_N.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/money/books/reviews/2010-06-01-deathmerchants01_ST_N.htm) Before, a cite was posted that showed how groups that claimed that they would do something about the environment by dealing with immigration actually are only helping elect climate change deniers. It is actually very likely that if nothing is done against what the main issue, global warming gases, that then immigration will actually get worse in the future. So, after once again he JAQs off again, I just finish with “Meh :p” Then the Chen returns all butthurt: > [@](#): > > You haven’t explained anything. You’ve said you have a non-environmental, but emotional, basis for refusing to allow this to be considered and hence smear anyone who raises it. Of course the mods had already warned him that that accusation was attacking the poster, and it was still a lie as I had pointed at reasons already mentioned by environmentalists. So he just loves to pile up infractions. I don’t worry at all that he is following fools, but it needs to be pointed out that others are using the organizations that he follows to help climate change deniers get elected. So, sorry Chump Chen if you think that you are scaring anyone, you can not hold a candle to the ones that are playing you like a fiddle, they do not give a damn about your fake environmentalism. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/2 "2011-06-18T08:11:43Z")
IIRC, **Chen019** is known for his racist and anti-immigrant positions around here. He’s not the fool being manipulated —he’s the fool trying to manipulate. Anyway, the thread in question is nothing but dishonest from the start. I’ve never noticed him being big on the environment before, he hasn’t addressed the arguments being made, and he’s pushing a big victimhood theory the whole time. The original question of “Are environmentalists cowards on immigration?” can be answered in one sentence: “No, they just realize that the people pushing anti-immigration positions have racist ulterior motives.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/3 "2011-06-18T08:35:33Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > IIRC, **Chen019** is known for his racist and anti-immigrant positions around here. He’s not the fool being manipulated —he’s the fool trying to manipulate. Anyway, the thread in question is nothing but dishonest from the start. I’ve never noticed him being big on the environment before, he hasn’t addressed the arguments being made, and he’s pushing a big victimhood theory the whole time. The original question of “Are environmentalists cowards on immigration?” can be answered in one sentence: “No, they just realize that the people pushing anti-immigration positions have racist ulterior motives.” Humor him ok? 🙂 I already know where he is coming from, but in this case the issue is bigger than the organizations that he is trying to peddle. The actions of the politicians elected with the help of the nativist organizations that he follows, demonstrate that he is considered a chum by smarter but devious extremists. Saddest thing to know is that there is research already published that points at immigration getting worse in a future where nothing is done about carbon emissions. The full answer in this case is: “No, they just realize that the people pushing anti-immigration positions have racist ulterior motives.” And they are seen as useful idiots by climate deniers. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/4 "2011-06-18T19:50:25Z")
He’s merely a racist dickhead who likes to try and disguise his views with a semblance of logic. ---
**Author:** ![RaleighRally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RaleighRally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaleighRally)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/5 "2011-06-18T20:56:45Z")
Do you think he is really a Chinese or is he a blond Übermensch like me? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/6 "2011-06-18T21:23:05Z")
> [@RaleighRally](#): > > Do you think he is really a Chinese or is he a blond Übermensch like me? You can just ask him, but in the end it’s quite irrelevant. Everyone picks their own moniker and can write whatever the hell they want. (I’ll let you know something, I’m not really an orc…) In the end all you know about him is that he’s a racist, preaching prick who endlessly repeats himself and weaves racialism into diverse topics like world politics or environmentalism. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/7 "2011-06-18T21:37:32Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You can just ask him, but in the end it’s quite irrelevant. Everyone picks their own moniker and can write whatever the hell they want. (I’ll let you know something, I’m not really an orc…) And my name is not buster. 🙂 What I do is bust the garbage men that try to push misleading or false information. > [@](#): > > In the end all you know about him is that he’s a racist, preaching prick who endlessly repeats himself and weaves racialism into diverse topics like world politics or environmentalism. Good to see that he is not able to gain any respect among most dopers. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/8 "2011-06-19T01:11:03Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > (I’ll let you know something, I’m not really an orc…) That’s good, Otherwise, I’d have to duel you to the death. For Gnomeregan! ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/9 "2011-06-19T08:02:41Z")
@ **GIGO Buster** , I agree that environmental concerns need to be addressed globally. We agree on that. What I cannot understand is why you think it makes sense, from an environmental perspective, for the US to maintain it’s level of population growth. 1. US Population stablization is an important goal (Clinton Sustainability Report, also in terms of [waters supplies](http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/111186/the-ten-biggest-american-cities-that-are-running-out-of-water) in the [Southwest](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11857&page=61)). 2. US population growth is largely driven by current immigration levels. > [@](#): > > If current trends continue, the population of the United States will rise to 438 million in 2050, from 296 million in 2005, and 82% of the increase will be due to immigrants arriving from 2005 to 2050 and their U.S.-born descendants, according to new projections developed by the Pew Research Center. [http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85) 1. Therefore to achieve population stabilization one policy option is to reduce immigration levels. That makes sense from an environmental perspective. You offered non-environmental reasons why you disagree and that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/10 "2011-06-19T09:29:34Z")
Yeah I argued with him about his racism. He seemed to think Asian people are super smart and Africans are dumb. I think it was about two posts worth of effort for me. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/11 "2011-06-19T09:31:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What I do is bust the garbage men that try to push misleading or false information. You need a better battle cry 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/12 "2011-06-19T10:22:01Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > @ **GIGO Buster** , > > I agree that environmental concerns need to be addressed globally. We agree on that. What I cannot understand is why you think it makes sense, from an environmental perspective, for the US to maintain it’s level of population growth. > > 1. US Population stablization is an important goal (Clinton Sustainability Report, also in terms of [waters supplies](http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/111186/the-ten-biggest-american-cities-that-are-running-out-of-water) in the [Southwest](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11857&page=61)). > > 2. US population growth is largely driven by current immigration levels. > [http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85) > > 3. Therefore to achieve population stabilization one policy option is to reduce immigration levels. For fuck’s sake, shut up you vile, disingenuous, wilfully obtuse, racist little parroting mental midget. You wouldn’t know a coherent argument if it walked up to you and socked you in the face. You wouldn’t know an analysis of facts if it fucked your mother. Nobody on this message board would piss on you if they’d drunk 5 Big Gulps, you were on fire and walking purposefully towards the library of Alexandria. > [@](#): > > That makes sense from an environmental perspective. You offered non-environmental reasons why you disagree and that’s fine. Liar, too. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/13 "2011-06-19T12:50:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You wouldn’t know a coherent argument if it walked up to you and socked you in the face. Hold on, you were the one who had to completely misrepresent the position of **Magellan01** & myself. Surely if you are going to debate a position you need to understand what the other side are saying. You wrote: > [@](#): > > Your and magellan’s arguments alike seem to boil down to: “all other things being equal, a smaller population would entail a smaller environmental impact”, correct ? That’s not a caricature, is it ? I responded: > [@](#): > > No, you’ve completely missed the point raised above. Population growth is seen as a threat to environmental sustainability in the US. I’ve provided you with basic examples in terms of [water supply](http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/111186/the-ten-biggest-american-cities-that-are-running-out-of-water) in the [Southwest](http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11857&page=61). So from an environmental perspective it is negligent to avoid immigration, when that is the main cause of [population growth in the US](http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=85). ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/14 "2011-06-19T13:07:48Z")
Sorry, I meant to include the rest of your extensive quote. The thing I don’t understand about your position **Kobal2** , is that you go on to argue that the [population aspect of the human impact equation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_PAT) should be ignored. That really makes no sense, as it is something that can be addressed via immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/15 "2011-06-19T13:33:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > For fuck’s sake, shut up you vile, disingenuous, wilfully obtuse, racist little parroting mental midget. You wouldn’t know a coherent argument if it walked up to you and socked you in the face. You wouldn’t know an analysis of facts if it fucked your mother. Nobody on this message board would piss on you if they’d drunk 5 Big Gulps, you were on fire and walking purposefully towards the library of Alexandria. > > Liar, too. I recognize this is not GD, but I have to report that his post seemed to lay out a cogent argument, and yours does nothing to refute it. Undoubtedly it’s been refuted elsewhere, but could I ask for the executive summary version? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/16 "2011-06-19T15:06:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I recognize this is not GD, but I have to report that his post seemed to lay out a cogent argument, and yours does nothing to refute it. Undoubtedly it’s been refuted elsewhere, but could I ask for the executive summary version? I thought the OP had this: > [@](#): > > “Immigration control is a foolish way to create an environmental perspective,” says Adam Werbach, who was the president of the Sierra Club in 1998. “It attacks people who are suffering, it allows people who are rich to be unaccountable, it’s out of touch with the realities of changing demographics, and it’s terrifically unpopular.” Point being that what Chen019 tries to avoid, is that the nativist cites he is using, are attempting to make immigration a priority for environmentalists. The ones that make the numbers add also the descendants of the immigrants to make the connection, unfortunately that would include people like you and your sons and daughters, grandsons, etc. Nothing wrong with adding those numbers to projections like that if we understand the solutions to help the environment will be applied to all. The problem is that Chen and others try their damnedest to willfully ignore that by dealing with population the environmentalists are also dealing with the subset population of immigrants, one would think that the out of scope subject for the main issue should be the recent immigrants, but clearly, and specially the “not really from Yale” cite he used, are not referring to that, they include also the descendants of the immigrants going back to after the revolutionary war. Anyhow, so we should ignore that focus that misleads people and concentrate on one of the most important part needed to get a sustainable world: controlling the carbon footprint, and to do that, we need to have policies set to get the ball rolling. Unfortunately, as it was demonstrated, guys like Chen just chicken out (showing who are the real cowards) and he even refuses to acknowledge that what the nativists actually do is to support candidates that deny that the big problem is there in the first place. As the cites in the other thread showed, the carbon footprint has been one of the most cynical reasons that nativist organizations are using to get populist rage going, and in the end, they do so to avoid dealing the main issue that is the carbon footprint. Demonstrating how myopic their position is. It is easier to find scapegoats rather that to deal with the main issue, what it is disturbing is the inclusion also of the immigrant descendants in the discussion, the background of the nativist sources shows that the 14th amendment is also a target, so the intention is to get populist rage going in an attempting to blame immigrants as the cause of the problems and then the reason behind the policies that will come (a carbon tax? Blame the immigrants!). Once that demagogic connection is done, then the goal of targeting the 14th amendment will be easier thanks to the populist rage and then the future population will get rid of even the descendants of the immigrants. Of course, I hope you see how unlikely is that. But the nativists do not care about how they get to that goal. And neither the ones that ultimately are controlling the issue, **climate change deniers** (That only care that immigrants consume their products) are clearly using this wedge issue to get support for their real agenda, and that is to prevent any carbon emission controls that should be imposed. > **[Climate change is real: an open letter from the scientific community](https://theconversation.com/climate-change-is-real-an-open-letter-from-the-scientific-community-1808)** > > Today, The Conversation launches a two-week series from the nation’s top minds on the science behind climate change and the efforts of “sceptics” to cloud the debate. The overwhelming scientific evidence… > [@](#): > > A vast number of scientists, engineers, and visionary businesspeople are boldly designing a future that is based on low-impact energy pathways and living within safe planetary boundaries; a future in which substantial health gains can be achieved by eliminating fossil-fuel pollution; and a future in which we strive to hand over a liveable planet to posterity. > > At the other extreme, understandable economic insecurity and fear of radical change have been exploited by ideologues and vested interests to whip up ill-informed, populist rage, and climate scientists have become the punching bag of shock jocks and tabloid scribes. > > Aided by a pervasive media culture that often considers peer-reviewed scientific evidence to be in need of “balance” by internet bloggers, this has enabled so-called “sceptics” to find a captive audience while largely escaping scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/17 "2011-06-19T15:48:16Z")
I forgot to point this also to you **Bricker** : Most points of the nativists trying to make immigrants guilty of the environmental degradation have been debunked: [http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/10/immigration\_climate\_change.html](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/10/immigration_climate_change.html) > [@](#): > > In the midst of these debates anti-immigrant groups are revamping their efforts to play these issues against each other using misinformation. These voices have long argued that immigrants destroy the environment, accelerate climate change, and undermine U.S. efforts to transition to a clean and green future. > > Nativist organizations and hate groups are attempting to drive their political agenda using environmental concerns as a cover. And conservative lawmakers and opponents of clean energy and climate legislation who use phony environmental arguments as a political wedge are promoting these groups’ talking points. > > These arguments are a “green farce.” They’re supposedly presented out of concern for the environment but are intentionally misleading and dangerously misinformed. They present Americans with a false choice between achieving fair and humane immigration reform and climate legislation that will respect the environment and lead our country to a clean and prosperous energy future. > > Immigrants should not be blamed for the nation’s climate woes. In fact, they deserve better recognition for the valuable contributions they make toward a “greener” society and economy. > > Environmentalists and advocates of the green economy must reject false choices and distractions from the greater imperative to fight the true causes of pollution and climate change: our dependence on fossil fuels and our unsustainable systems of energy consumption. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/18 "2011-06-19T16:16:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I forgot to point this also to you **Bricker** : > > Most points of the nativists trying to make immigrants guilty of the environmental degradation have been debunked: Here is one FACT that has not been debunbked: all things remaining equal, the more people that live in an area the more stress they place on that environment. And as far as what you think has been debunked in that other thread, you do not debunk the issue of a population’s impact on the environment of a specific country (like the U.S.) by simply chanting about the issue of global warming. You might as well argue the Beatles being a great band by extolling the beauty of jazz. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, one can be concerned about both local environmental issues and global warming. And just because the latter (which we can look at via carbon footprints) may be the most important issue to you, or the planet, that does not mean that it is invalid or an exercise in folly to look at other environmental issues. Just look at the hundreds of local Save The \_\_\_\_\_\_ efforts around the country. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/19 "2011-06-19T16:29:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I recognize this is not GD, but I have to report that his post seemed to lay out a cogent argument, and yours does nothing to refute it. Undoubtedly it’s been refuted elsewhere, but could I ask for the executive summary version? Short version: it starts on false premises; excludes enough middles that Amnesty International is about to send him a strongly worded letter; and ignores every single fact, argument or opinion that doesn’t fit within his established narrative or points away from his preconceived notion that immigration’s gotta stop now, or else!!! Basically it’s only cogent in the same alternate reality where Glenn Beck’s arguments are well thought-out. As for my actual point-by-point rebuttal, see original thread. I already repeated myself enough times for puddingbrains here, I’m thoroughly tired of the subject. And I don’t even give a hoot about the environment to begin with :smack:. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/20 "2011-06-19T16:33:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Short version: it starts on false premises; . What are the false premises? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909.md?page=2)