# Chen019: A bigger fool that follows other fools **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909 "2011-06-18T04:40:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/301 "2011-07-02T16:11:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What it is clear to me is that what the Sierra Club fight showed is that that middle is also shrinking, most environmentalists are favoring immigrants as part of the solution instead of looking at them as a problem. The solution to _what_? And if your answer is anything other than “the solution to the U.S. sustainability equation”, we have clear evidence that you have not and are not addressing what Chen brought up in his GD thread. And if you are talking about the “the solution to the U.S. sustainability equation”, I’m sure you’ll be able to explain how that equation is helped by more immigrants and not fewer. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > The “logic” Chen has is just set like creationism logic. It works only by constantly ignoring the evidence that is out there. And to be more precise here, it is just a fallacy of the excluded middle. > > [Environmentalists say: stop ALL of Arizona's anti-immigrant law | Grist](http://www.grist.org/article/environmentalists-say-stop-all-of-arizonas-anti-immigrant-law) > > > [@](#): > > > > As I am practicing civil disobedience in Phoenix today, I’m proud to be a part of the new generation of eco-activists who see the forests for the trees (and the people). We believe the fate of our planet intimately depends on how we treat our brothers and sisters, and that standing up for Immigrant Rights is a central element of our task. > > > > These new environmentalists represent a new way of thinking. We’re connecting the dots: an ecosystem is your home. Economy is the management of your home. When you globalize your economy, you globalize your ecosystem. Here’s the frank outcome: the ecological systems that support life on our planet have been pushed to the brink by an economy that trashes natural resources and destroys relationships between peoples across the planet in the process. When you convert forests into paper, mountains into coal, and oceans into oil, you force people off their land and deprive those land-based peoples of the resources they depend on to survive. A key lesson from the Environmental Justice movement is that supporting those communities in protecting their land and their livelihoods is one of the most strategic ways to fight the drivers of climate change. The root cause of environmental degradation and climate change is the root cause of forced migration. > > > > Human migration has happened throughout history. Immigration is an ever-present, beautiful fact of Arizona’s history. Migration is not the cause of the climate crisis. But displacement of humans (and the next steps of detention and deportation being put in place by SB1070) will be the result of it. > > > > Those of us who have worked around the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change know that half of the UN debates center on “adaptation.” That means finding ways to accommodate the millions of climate refugees forced to find new homes because of the droughts, floods, famines, and destabilization that comprise the climate crisis. Right now the US immigration architecture is being built out. Forward-thinking climate activists know that now is a critical time to ensure that the precedent for immigration policy in this country protects human rights because immigration is going to get a lot more common, not less. I thank you for substituting the cite you provided for the answers requested. Aside from the fact that the author’s thrust is GLOBAL and you once again conflate the different issues and avoid addressing the one Chen originally brought up, I thank you because _your own cite_ demonstrates that these so-called environmentalists are not acting as scientists, but as agents of some perceived social justice. This is what is at the heart of your argument and just about every cite you’ve provided. This latest one makes it crystal clear. So, I do thank you for at least providing clarity. I invite all concerned parties to spend time on your cite, and on [this link provided by the author.](http://www.altoarizona.com/) And [this one.](http://ruckus.org/) I guess the days of environmental science are behind us. It’s some supremely comical shit that the side that is always chanting about science!, science!, science! doesn’t even understand the importance of it’s most fundamental tenet: the gathering of _facts_ with a cold, unbiased, objective eye. Instead, they see “science” as some malleable mortar to shore up the misshapen bricks of a contorted kumbaya ideology. Like I said, that is some funny shit. I think that’s about it. One can only take Mr. Martini responding to any and all appeals to logic with “I bet a nickel” only so many times before you want Nurse Ratched to pop a handful of pills into your own cup. Sanity, out. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/302 "2011-07-02T16:12:39Z")
And seeing that the “logic” of the Chen is just ignoring the middle, one then has to look at the other subject of the OP. As noticed by the Southern Poverty Law Center on their Green wash report, the most disturbing connection is the one I noticed with Nativist groups and Global Warming deniers. [http://www.splcenter.org/greenwash-nativists-environmentalism-and-the-hypocrisy-of-hate/what-is-greenwashing](http://www.splcenter.org/greenwash-nativists-environmentalism-and-the-hypocrisy-of-hate/what-is-greenwashing) When the people giving money to those groups are also involved with AGW deniers and even the same groups are involved in denying also the science, it is not hard to see why is that. There is a lot of overlapping with people that hate specific immigrants with well to do people in this country. The hypocrisy is a double one, because members of those groups attempt to pass themselves as liberals, and then their environmentalism is as true as a 3 dollar bill. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/303 "2011-07-02T16:21:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The solution to _what_? And if your answer is anything other than “the solution to the U.S. sustainability equation”, we have clear evidence that you have not and are not addressing what Chen brought up in his GD thread. And if you are talking about the “the solution to the U.S. sustainability equation”, I’m sure you’ll be able to explain how that equation is helped by more immigrants and not fewer. You are still insisting on denying the forum where we are, now that is dumb. 🙂 > [@magellan01](#): > > I thank you for substituting the cite you provided for the answers requested. Aside from the fact that the author’s thrust is GLOBAL and you once again conflate the different issues and avoid addressing the one Chen originally brought up, I thank you because _your own cite_ demonstrates that these so-called environmentalists are not acting as scientists, but as agents of some perceived social justice. This is what is at the heart of your argument and just about every cite you’ve provided. This latest one makes it crystal clear. So, I do thank you for at least providing clarity. > > I invite all concerned parties to spend time on your cite, and on [this link provided by the author.](http://www.altoarizona.com/) And [this one.](http://ruckus.org/) > > I guess the days of environmental science are behind us. It’s some supremely comical shit that the side that is always chanting about science!, science!, science! doesn’t even understand the importance of it’s most fundamental tenet: the gathering of _facts_ with a cold, unbiased, objective eye. Instead, they see “science” as some malleable mortar to shore up the misshapen bricks of a contorted kumbaya ideology. > > Like I said, that is some funny shit. > > I think that’s about it. One can only take Mr. Martini responding to any and all appeals to logic with “I bet a nickel” only so many times before you want Nurse Ratched to pop a handful of pills into your own cup. > > Sanity, out. My point about science was only for the pedantic reasons why it is ridiculous to focus on immigrants when for the big issue it barely registers, environmentalists have other considerations to take into account. You may think that thanks to your ideology you can dismiss what the environmentalist is saying here, but the point was to show what even locally environmentalists are doing, pretending that this is not the case is part of the denial of the changes that are happening among environmentalist groups. What you see as funny shit is the focus Brown and others have, what you are stupidly forgetting is that Brown recommended Grist. Blame Chen for bringing Brown to the discussion expecting something different. [Well I also warned magellan to not ignore that Chen is a klutz when looking for unbiased sources and he ends up misrepresenting them. But I just knew magellan would ignore the warning] ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/304 "2011-07-02T16:50:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > When the people giving money to those groups are also involved with AGW deniers and even the same groups are involved in denying also the science, it is not hard to see why is that. > > There is a lot of overlapping with people that hate specific immigrants with well to do people in this country. The hypocrisy is a double one, because members of those groups attempt to pass themselves as liberals, and then their environmentalism is as true as a 3 dollar bill. You may want to look up “Fallacy of Association”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/305 "2011-07-02T16:58:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are still insisting on denying the forum where we are, now that is dumb. 🙂 > > … > > [Well I also warned magellan to not ignore that Chen is a klutz when looking for unbiased sources and he ends up misrepresenting them. But I just knew magellan would ignore the warning] I don’t perceive Chen as being klutz-like in the least. Well no more than anyone can appear unklutz-like when he is banging his head against a stone dolt that refuses to answer even the simplest questions directly. You, on the other hand, come off like a pinata with a voice box inserted in it. Every time it gets hit with a question, we get to hear one of a few prerecorded comments having nothing to do with what is asked. Do you feel that more forum-appropriate than the Mr. Martini comparison? I do aim to please. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/306 "2011-07-02T17:22:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You may want to look up “Fallacy of Association”. I gave Chen plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that that association was a false one by pointing at the current efforts those nativists are doing by demanding action from the elected officials that those groups helped get in to power. On carbon emmisions they show that indeed they are as good as a 3 dollar bill. He failed to find any cites that shows what they are doing demanding action on carbon emissions now, maybe you can? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/307 "2011-07-02T17:26:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t perceive Chen as being klutz-like in the least. Well no more than anyone can appear unklutz-like when he is banging his head against a stone dolt that refuses to answer even the simplest questions directly. You, on the other hand, come off like a pinata with a voice box inserted in it. Every time it gets hit with a question, we get to hear one of a few prerecorded comments having nothing to do with what is asked. > > Do you feel that more forum-appropriate than the Mr. Martini comparison? I do aim to please. Close but no banana you numbskull, I was giving you a chance, a more intelligent fellow would had recognized by know that the good sources Chen used were misrepresented and back down at least on that. The fact that you do not even want to acknowledge that just shows that indeed you are not even able to notice when you are digging your own hole. Hey, I aim to please too. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/308 "2011-07-03T07:43:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > My point about science was only for the pedantic reasons why it is ridiculous to focus on immigrants when for the big issue it barely registers, environmentalists have other considerations to take into account. Oh no, we’re back to this “we can only focus on one thing” argument. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/309 "2011-07-03T07:45:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t perceive Chen as being klutz-like in the least. Well no more than anyone can appear unklutz-like \*\*when he is banging his head against a stone dolt that refuses to answer even the simplest questions directly. You, on the other hand, come off like a pinata with a voice box inserted in it. Every time it gets hit with a question, we get to hear one of a few prerecorded comments having nothing to do with what is asked. \*\* > > Do you feel that more forum-appropriate than the Mr. Martini comparison? I do aim to please. Word. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/310 "2011-07-03T15:22:20Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Oh no, we’re back to this “we can only focus on one thing” argument. :smack: The point was that for expert scientists that are working on the issue, immigration barely registers. Lester Brown’s expertize comes from an agricultural and population management, he has the credentials, so what is his focus once again? [QUOTE=Lester Brown - Plan B] The four mutually dependent Plan B goals—stabilizing climate, stabilizing population, eradicating poverty, and restoring the economy’s natural support systems—are all essential to restoring food security. It’s unlikely that we can reach any one without reaching the others. Eradicating poverty is not only the key to population stabilization, political stabilization, and a better life, it also provides hope. As Nobel laureate Mohammed Yunus, founder of the Grameen Bank for micro-credit in Bangladesh, has pointed out, “Poverty leads to hopelessness, which provokes people to desperate acts.”3 [/QUOTE] Once again, there are other organizations that can have immigration as a focus, environmentalists have a bigger picture to look at and as in the USA they are dropping the elitism of the past and they are reaching to the ones most affected by pollution, it is no wonder that a neutral position is the logical one for them. It is just that much to your chagrin, many environmentalists that disagree with the neutral position are actually in favor of defending immigrants nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/311 "2011-07-03T15:29:27Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Oh no, we’re back to this “we can only focus on one thing” argument. :smack: I thought “focusing on a single issue” was a summary of your posting history, dude. It’s not like it’s leaving you a lot of room to be sarcastic about it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/312 "2011-07-03T15:32:55Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Word. Well, once again the “logic” you had was shot a few posts ago, so I’m glad that you are conceding the point by not replying on that. Your silence and reactions to what the fake environmentalist nativist groups don’t do when action is needed on the “stabilizing climate” part of the equation, speak louder than words. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/313 "2011-07-04T05:02:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Your silence and reactions to what the fake environmentalist nativist groups don’t do when action is needed on the “stabilizing climate” part of the equation, speak louder than words. Bullsh1t, I have told you repeatedly I agree with you on other aspects of addressing global warming. Unfortunately, you lack the ability to put aside your bias even for the sake of argument. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/314 "2011-07-04T07:09:46Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Bullsh1t, I have told you repeatedly I agree with you on other aspects of addressing global warming. Unfortunately, you lack the ability to put aside your bias even for the sake of argument. Just words.. 🙂 You have not shown any evidence whatsoever that you understand what the whole issue is, just by your use of the “one child policy” copy paste point you demonstrated who you are listening to. Indeed, you are following the methods that Anthony Watts (well known climate change denier) used against Gore, that and other clues show that the “stabilizing climate” part of the equation is blatantly ignored by you and the ones that you are following, and in reality you do not care that that is the case, as long as they follow your pet subject. Of course the retarded part (from you and your nativist friends) comes by noticing what Lester Brown mentioned: ignoring the “stabilizing climate” part of the equation will lead to more immigration in the future, not less. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/315 "2011-07-04T10:44:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just words.. 🙂 Yes, and you can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge on this forum the obvious point that **Magellan01** & myself have made. Such a closed mind, impervious to logic and evidence 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/316 "2011-07-04T14:29:00Z")
This is the song, la la la la la Elmo’s song. La la la la, la la la la, Elmo’s song. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/317 "2011-07-04T16:06:19Z")
Still trying to cut in on their dance, eh, **Auto**? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/318 "2011-07-04T16:16:23Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yes, and you can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge on this forum the obvious point that **Magellan01** & myself have made. Such a closed mind, impervious to logic and evidence 😃 Already done, and that attempt at ignoring that it was replied already shows that you are dumb for still making an argument that ignores the middle and the preponderance of evidence of why neutrality was chosen. I just have to thank once again Lester Brown for pointing me to Grist. > **[Immigration](https://grist.org/article/immigration/)** > > Back when all the immigrant protests were happening, I thought about posting something on the debate within the environmentalist community over immigration. (See this Christian Science Monitor story for a good rundown.) But you know what? It's a... > [@](#): > > But you know what? It’s a stupid debate, and I think anti-immigration enviros are a tiny, tiny minority whose voice is amplified by media hungry for controversy. > > You’d be hard-pressed to find a better example of short-term, misanthropic thinking than trying to cut off immigration to the U.S. for environmental reasons. It’s a political loser, a moral loser, an economic loser … it’s a loser of an argument. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/319 "2011-07-04T16:17:57Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > This is the song, la la la la la Elmo’s song. La la la la, la la la la, Elmo’s song. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Still trying to cut in on their dance, eh, **Auto**? 😃 Well, it is good to see some [del]carbon[/del] neutrals showing how a huge priority this is. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/320 "2011-07-04T16:25:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Already done, and that attempt at ignoring that it was replied already shows that you are dumb for still making an argument that ignores the middle and the preponderance of evidence of why neutrality was chosen. > > I just have to thank once again Lester Brown for pointing me to Grist. > > [Immigration | Grist](http://www.grist.org/article/immigration) And, Chen should stop showing all who was the coward in the end, he should reply to the rest the post, not just to the “words” comment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909.md?page=17)