# Chen019: A bigger fool that follows other fools **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909 "2011-06-18T04:40:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/121 "2011-06-21T22:28:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You may want to [check the OP.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=612003) The incident about them being bought off by the rich guy in LA that caused them to do the “about turn” came later. [Sierra Club – Political Activism and Controversies – Population Control and Immigration:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_club#Population_control_and_immigration) > [@](#): > > Observers of the Sierra club have charged that the club’s views on population growth, and the efforts of some club members to restrain immigration, are a continuation of aspects of the Eugenics movement.[33][34] > > In 1969, the Sierra Club published Paul R. Ehrlich’s book, The Population Bomb, in which he said that population growth was responsible for environmental decline and advocated coercive measures to reduce it. Some observers have argued that the book had a “racial dimension” in the tradition of the Eugenics movement, and that it “reiterated many of Osborn’s jeremiads.”[35][36][37] > > In 1978, John Tanton, former Chairman of the National Sierra Club Population Committee and former President of Zero Population Growth, founded the Federation for American Immigration Reform.[37] > > During the 1980s, some Sierra Club members, including Paul Ehrlich’s wife Anne,[35] wanted to take the Club into the contentious field of immigration to the United States. The Club’s position was that overpopulation was a significant factor in the degradation of the environment. Accordingly, the Club supported stabilizing and reducing U.S. and world population. Some members argued that, as a practical matter, U.S. population could not be stabilized, let alone reduced, at the then-current levels of immigration. They urged the Club to support immigration reduction. The Club had previously addressed the issue of “mass immigration,”[38] and in 1988, the organization’s Population Committee and Conservation Coordinating Committee stated that immigration to the U.S. should be limited, so as to achieve population stabilization.[39] > > Other Sierrans thought that the immigration issue was too far from the Club’s core environmentalist mission, and were also concerned that involvement would impair the organization’s political ability to pursue its other objectives. In 1996, the Board of Directors accepted this latter view, and voted that the Sierra Club would be neutral on issues of immigration.[citation needed] > > The advocates of immigration reduction sought to reverse this decision through the referendum provision of the Bylaws of the Sierra Club. They organized themselves as “SUSPS”, a name originally derived from “Sierrans for U.S. Population Stabilization” (although that name is no longer used since the Sierra Club objected to infringing the Club’s trademark in the term “Sierrans”). SUSPS and its allies gathered the necessary signatures to place the issue on the ballot in the Club’s election in the spring of 1998. The Board’s decision that the Club would take no position on immigration was upheld by the membership by a three-to-two margin.[citation needed] > > The controversy resurfaced when a group of three immigration reduction proponents ran in the 2004 Board of Directors elections, hoping to move the Club’s position away from a neutral stance on immigration, and restore the stance previously held.[40] Groups outside of the Club became involved, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center and MoveOn.[41] Of the three candidates, two (Frank Morris and David Pimentel), were on the board of the anti-immigration group Diversity Alliance for a Sustainable America[42][43] and two (Richard Lamm and Frank Morris) were on the board of directors or the board of advisors of the Federation for American Immigration Reform;[42] both had also held leadership positions within the NAACP.[44] Their candidacies were denounced by a fourth candidate, Morris Dees of the SPLC, as a “hostile takeover” attempt by “radical anti-immigrant activists.”[41][45] The immigration reduction proponents won only 3% of all votes cast in the election,[46] and the controversy subsided. The nearest thing to an “about face” in that story is the 1996 decision simply to **be neutral** on immigration; before that, there does not seem to have been any official club line at all, so that was just a decision not to adopt one. Rather meh even by paranoid standards. And anyone who followed the other thread by now knows all about [John Tanton,](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Tanton) the [Federation for American Immigration Reform,](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Federation_for_American_Immigration_Reform) and [Progressives for Immigration Reform.](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Progressives_For_Immigration_Reform) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/122 "2011-06-21T22:37:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is not true. Not in the way “immigrants” is being used by **Chen** , **Shodan** , me, or any of the cites. And it may be part of the confusion. There are two different groups: > > Group 1: “the population as a whole”, which does include those who have _already_ emigrated to the U.S.. > > Group 2: there is the number of people who _will_—future tense—emigrate here. This latter group is what people are referring to in this discussion when referring to “immigrants” are those people who would be added through immigration. And I already mentioned what the future will wring regarding point 2 also, but thanks for still trying to avoid the main points in \*\*this \*\*thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/123 "2011-06-21T22:42:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And I already mentioned what the future will wring regarding point 2 also, but thanks for still trying to avoid the main points in \*\*this \*\*thread. Thanks for not addressing what I said. You know, just because you _can_ be a dick in the pit doesn’t mean you _must_ be. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/124 "2011-06-21T22:44:03Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Well yes, but that is a rather broad topic! The debate thread I started was in relation to why some environmentalists had done an about turn on population stabilization in the US (and immigration which is a significant driver of that). Translation: “we are still butthurt!” > [@Chen019](#): > > They are advocates for the environment. If others wish to argue the economic or social reasons for ongoing population growth in the US they can, but it makes little sense from an _environmental_ perspective. An advocate for the environment takes into account many issues, if you still want to claim your denialists in nativists clothes are doing so, by all means produce the cites of them pressuring federal or state governments for not doing anything about carbon emission controls. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/125 "2011-06-21T22:48:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Thanks for not addressing what I said. You know, just because you _can_ be a dick in the pit doesn’t mean you _must_ be. :rolleyes: Am I supposed to think you did not read what it was replied to **Shodan**? So you need training wheels to follow a discussion? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/126 "2011-06-22T00:20:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Am I supposed to think you did not read what it was replied to **Shodan**? So you need training wheels to follow a discussion? 🙂 Yeah, you’re supposed to think that. Even though the comment of yours I responded to was in that very post. Again, :rolleyes:. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/127 "2011-06-22T00:25:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yeah, you’re supposed to think that. Even though the comment of yours I responded to was in that very post. Again, :rolleyes:. So I do not get it, you know why we will get more then, so why the reality that in the end the organizations that are butthurt are supporting climate change deniers does not bother you at all? So yeah, once again, you really need training wheels. You are not getting how climate change deniers are playing you like a fiddle. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/128 "2011-06-22T00:33:45Z")
And this is not the thread for “this discussion” as much as would like, this is a pit of Cheno19 and it is also here to bring attention to the \*\*actual \*\*activities of the ones that were butthurt in their attempt at controlling an environmentalist organization, so stick to the issue. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/129 "2011-06-22T00:45:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And this is not the thread for “this discussion” as much as would like, this is a pit of Cheno19 and it is also here to bring attention to the \*\*actual \*\*activities of the ones that were butthurt in their attempt at controlling an environmentalist organization, so stick to the issue. Why? You never stuck to the issue in Chen’s thread. Why should someone do you the courtesy you do not extend to others? Regardless, the points I made in that post are germane to the discussion you was having with **Shodan**. They are also relevant to this thread and that, because they point to a foundational problem (I think) as to where the confusion lies and why you have insisted in both threads to argue a point made by no one. Here they are again: [QUOTE=magellan01] [QUOTE=GIGObuster] The disingenuous part comes by denying that population on the whole also includes the immigrants. [/QUOTE] This is not true. Not in the way “immigrants” is being used by Chen, Shodan, me, or any of the cites. And it may be part of the confusion. There are two different groups: Group 1: “the population as a whole”, which does include those who have already emigrated to the U.S.. Group 2: there is the number of people who will—future tense—emigrate here. This latter group is what people are referring to in this discussion when referring to “immigrants” are those people who would be added through immigration. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/130 "2011-06-22T01:11:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why? You never stuck to the issue in Chen’s thread. Why should someone do you the courtesy you do not extend to others? Like if others did not see through you guys, now don’t insult our intelligence. > **[Anti-immigrant Leader Admits Using Climate Change for Political Gain -...](https://newcomm.org/files/imagine2050-sub/2010/02/23/anti-immigrant-leader-admits-using-climate-change-for-political-gain/)** > > by Rebecca Poswolsky and Dave M. The anti-immigrant movement has long capitalized on environmental concerns to attack America’s immigrant communities. This tactic was on full display at the Conservative Political Action Conference this past weekend... > [@magellan01](#): > > Regardless, the points I made in that post are germane to the discussion you was having with **Shodan**. They are also relevant to this thread and that, because they point to a foundational problem (I think) as to where the confusion lies and why you have insisted in both threads to argue a point made by no one. Here they are again: And again: > **[Climate Change May Mean More Mexican Immigration](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-change-may-mean-more-mexican-immigration/)** > > A reduction in crop yields could spur even more migration from south to north, a new analysis finds > [@](#): > > Climate change’s impacts on crop yields may force as many as seven million Mexicans to emigrate to the U.S. over the next 70 years, according to research published July 26 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The study is among the first to attempt to put hard numbers on questions about “environmental refugees” that may be caused by climate change. Think about the FUTURE! But we already know you don’t, the goal of the nativists is to divide environmentalists, the goal of the climate change deniers is to make use of the very useful nativist idiots. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/131 "2011-06-22T01:25:19Z")
\*\*Gigo, \*\* See post 116. I can’t for the life of me understand why you would not find what I pointed out helpful and comment on them in order to clarify your position. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/132 "2011-06-22T01:40:50Z")
I’m still confused as to why one dude crossing the Mexico/American border suddenly has a greater impact on the global environment. I also don’t get how if the same dude crosses the same border he suddenly needs more water. The Colorado river feeds into Mexico. Well, it will until we tell them to fuck off and dam it completely to wring every kilowatt of power, thus improving the environment (by which I mean _my_ environment). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/133 "2011-06-22T02:13:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > \*\*Gigo, > \*\* > See post 116. I can’t for the life of me understand why you would not find what I pointed out helpful and comment on them in order to clarify your position. This is not that discussion, but what I can understand is that you enjoy being manipulated by even more powerful interests into ignoring that your pet subject will be gored by ignoring who is really benefiting from all those misleading efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/134 "2011-06-22T02:42:13Z")
> [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](#): > > I’m still confused as to why one dude crossing the Mexico/American border suddenly has a greater impact on the global environment. > > I also don’t get how if the same dude crosses the same border he suddenly needs more water. The Colorado river feeds into Mexico. Well, it will until we tell them to fuck off and dam it completely to wring every kilowatt of power, thus improving the environment (by which I mean _my_ environment). They have a greater effect on the US environment. The Clinton Sustainability Taskforce suggested population stabilization was an important objective. The point about population growth is also made here by Lester Brown. [Session Verification](http://www.earth-policy.org/plan_b_updates/2006/update59) US population growth is significantly driven by immigration. Therefore immigration is a logical means to address population growth in the US. Others here, may consider that a one child policy as used in China is more desirable. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/135 "2011-06-22T02:51:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > This is not that discussion, but what I can understand is that you enjoy being manipulated by even more powerful interests into ignoring that your pet subject will be gored by ignoring who is really benefiting from all those misleading efforts. WHAT?! I commented on something YOU wrote, pointing out an error. Hand wave all you want, but I cannot fathom why you’re so afraid to answer…why you wouldn’t want to take the opportunity to explain why what I commented on is _not_ wrong and have all the lessers around you benefit from your superior grasp of the issues. All I can come up with is that you know you’re wrong in that instance and want to shine the light away. Funny, I never took you for a coward. ::shrug:: ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/136 "2011-06-22T02:52:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And this is not the thread for “this discussion” as much as would like, this is a pit of Cheno19 and it is also here to bring attention to the \*\*actual \*\*activities of the ones that were butthurt in their attempt at controlling an environmentalist organization, so stick to the issue. Could you please use less homophobic terms? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/137 "2011-06-22T02:55:11Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Could you please use less homophobic terms? :rolleyes: **Chen,** please go off right now and do something that really, painfully, **permanently** hurts your butt. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/138 "2011-06-22T02:58:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is not true. Not in the way “immigrants” is being used by **Chen** , **Shodan** , me, or any of the cites. And it may be part of the confusion. There are two different groups: > > Group 1: “the population as a whole”, which does include those who have _already_ emigrated to the U.S.. > > Group 2: there is the number of people who _will_—future tense—emigrate here. This latter group is what people are referring to in this discussion when referring to “immigrants” are those people who would be added through immigration. It’s incredible that this basic point even needs to be explained. I don’t know if it is due to pure refusal to consider the distinction, or hardware issues. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/139 "2011-06-22T03:06:16Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It’s incredible that this basic point even needs to be explained. I don’t know if it is due to pure refusal to consider the distinction, or hardware issues. You know, I was hopeful when I first made that post. I thought that there might have been some genuine, innocent confusion. And that my post might have resulted in an “Oh now I see why we’ve been talking past each other.”. But no such luck. He’s clearly been intentionally misleading (no surprise) and trying to dictate what you, I, and the cites are saying. Even when we correct him. I sensed that this was at the heart of his seeming density. But I forgot to multiply his density with dishonesty. I’m slipping. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909/140 "2011-06-22T03:18:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > WHAT?! I commented on something YOU wrote, pointing out an error. > > Hand wave all you want, but I cannot fathom why you’re so afraid to answer…why you wouldn’t want to take the opportunity to explain why what I commented on is _not_ wrong and have all the lessers around you benefit from your superior grasp of the issues. > > All I can come up with is that you know you’re wrong in that instance and want to shine the light away. Funny, I never took you for a coward. ::shrug:: Piffle, we already know how you are at identifying good information from the bad, And your attempts at distraction will not work, the OP here is about looking at the foolishness of the ones attempting to pass themselves as environmentalists. [http://www.alternet.org/story/147655/](http://www.alternet.org/story/147655/) > [@](#): > > How Racist Anti-Immigrant Groups Are Trying to Recruit Environmentalists > Xenophobes have launched a cynical campaign to recruit environmentalists to their cause by blaming immigrants for urban sprawl and other environmental problems. > > In January 2010, national leaders in ecology, sustainable business, and the larger environmental movement gathered in Washington to grapple with the problem of building “The New Green Economy.” Hosted by the government-funded National Council for Science and the Environment, the event was a prestigious one. > > But one of the invited speakers was hardly an environmentalist. > > Roy Beck, who participated in a panel entitled “Perverse Incentives, Subsidies, and Tax Code Impediments to a Sustainable Economy,” is the head of NumbersUSA, an anti-immigration group that was largely responsible for sinking a comprehensive immigration reform bill in 2007. Beck has spent nearly 20 years relentlessly attacking American immigration policies, even editing tracts like The Immigration Invasion, a book so raw in its nativism that Canadian authorities banned it as hate literature. More to the point, perhaps, purported environmentalist Beck’s group not long ago paid nearly half a million dollars to a far-right news service— an outfit that has described global warming as a “religion” that is “impervious to evidence” and has pilloried conservationists as “anti-mankind.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-a-bigger-fool-that-follows-other-fools/585909.md?page=8)