# Chen019, you are a liar. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 9, 2012, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246 "2012-03-09T09:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/81 "2012-03-11T17:56:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Show me one instance where I misrepresented another person’s position and did not own up to it when called on it. Or one instance where I misrepresented my own position and did not own up to it when called on it. > > Just one. Well hell, right upthread in post #53 you insinuated that anti-“race realists” were moved by “Leftist” political correctness to object to racial classification schemes that are scientifically legitimate. You were corrected by several posts pointing out that the real problem with existing racial classification schemes is that they’re **not** scientifically legitimate, and explaining why. Yet you failed to own up to and retract your insinuation. You do this sort of thing all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/82 "2012-03-11T18:04:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Show me one instance where I misrepresented another person’s position and did not own up to it when called on it. Or one instance where I misrepresented my own position and did not own up to it when called on it. > > Just one. **brazil84** , I’m not going to play your stupid games. It’s not worth my time to reread your posts. By your own standard, I shouldn’t engage with you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/83 "2012-03-11T18:16:32Z")
On other discussions the solution of brazil84 is always to put the people that do show how moronic his points are on ignore, no wonder he is not aware when called on it now. And people like **The other Waldo Pepper** and **magellan01** think that brazil84 and Chen019 are worthy of being defended, anyone doing so is not very good at identifying good from bad sources either. Of course then the result is to make others just laugh at the contortions they have to do to defend people like Chen019, that they whine later that they are not being taken seriously is not my problem but theirs. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/84 "2012-03-11T19:27:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **brazil84** , I’m not going to play your stupid games. i.e. you can’t back up your claim but also can’t bring yourself to apologize. > [@](#): > > It’s not worth my time to reread your posts. Then how do you even know that what you are saying is true? Or do you simply assume that anyone who argues against Leftism must be engaging in dishonest debate tactics? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/85 "2012-03-11T19:47:01Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > i.e. you can’t back up your claim but also can’t bring yourself to apologize. Nah. You’re just not worth the trouble. You’re a liar, an idiot, and utterly dishonest. You have zero credibility on this board. There’s no reason to engage you other to insult you. > [@](#): > > Then how do you even know that what you are saying is true? Because I’ve had the painful experience of reading threads you have participated in before. I’m not going to subject myself to that idiocy again. > [@](#): > > Or do you simply assume that anyone who argues against Leftism must be engaging in dishonest debate tactics? Thank you for providing an excellent example of your misrepresenting someone else’s position. I made absolutely no mention of your politics. I said you engaged in weaseling and strawmanning. You’ve just nicely demonstrated your dishonest tactics by dragging in a political strawman. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/86 "2012-03-11T20:05:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Nah. You’re just not worth the trouble. You’re a liar, an idiot, and utterly dishonest. Lol, and you can’t point to even one lie I’ve supposedly told. Looks to me like you are the liar. > [@](#): > > Thank you for providing an excellent example of your misrepresenting someone else’s position. I simply asked you a question --it was not an assertion about your position. Perhaps the answer is “no” But I have a feeling that your real problem with my posts is that I have offended your sense of politics. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/87 "2012-03-11T20:10:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, and you can’t point to even one lie I’ve supposedly told. Looks to me like you are the liar. HAH! You’re rubber, **Col** , and he’s glue! So suck it! Nyahnyahnyah! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/88 "2012-03-11T20:58:41Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, and you can’t point to even one lie I’ve supposedly told. Looks to me like you are the liar. > > I simply asked you a question --it was not an assertion about your position. Perhaps the answer is “no” But I have a feeling that your real problem with my posts is that I have offended your sense of politics. Thanks for demonstrating my point so well. You’re just not worth engaging with. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/89 "2012-03-11T21:23:14Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Thanks for demonstrating my point so well. If speculating about peoples’ motivations = lying, then you are most welcome. > [@](#): > > You’re just not worth engaging with. Lol, and yet you keep engaging with me. Do you need to have the last word all the time? Oops, I just speculated about your motivations again. I guess that makes me a liar. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/90 "2012-03-11T21:35:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Nah. You’re just not worth the trouble. You’re a liar, an idiot, and utterly dishonest. You have zero credibility on this board. There’s no reason to engage you other to insult you. I’m not all that familiar with **brazil84** , other than peeking into the colossal threads he and **GIGObuster** get into from time to time. But I do think that calling someone a liar is pretty serious (especially for a Mod). I have no idea whether he is or isn’t a liar, so could you point to a few of his posts that cause you to believe that he is, in fact, a liar? As opposed to maybe being mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/91 "2012-03-11T21:44:19Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Seems like more of a deliberate strawman to me. I’ve never heard anyone complain that “The South” does not exist since Wheeling, West Virginia is significantly further north than Cape May, New Jersey. > > Normally, most people can accept that language and the underlying thinking can be flexible – that a “red tide” is not necessarily red or even tidal in nature. That “SoHo” does not include many blocks which are nonetheless south of Houston street. That “Asian-American” does not include recent immigrants from Israel. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/92 "2012-03-11T21:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > magellan01 magellan01 is offline > Guest > > Join Date: Jul 2004 > Quote: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post > > Seems like more of a deliberate strawman to me. I’ve never heard anyone complain that “The South” does not exist since Wheeling, West Virginia is significantly further north than Cape May, New Jersey. > > > > Normally, most people can accept that language and the underlying thinking can be flexible – that a “red tide” is not necessarily red or even tidal in nature. That “SoHo” does not include many blocks which are nonetheless south of Houston street. That “Asian-American” does not include recent immigrants from Israel. > > Well said. Not hardly. We’re talking science, here, gentlemen. Precision, exactitude, consistency, reproducibility. Bring it, or get the fuck out of my (metaphorical) laboratory. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/93 "2012-03-11T21:57:58Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, and yet you keep engaging with me. Do you need to have the last word all the time? Oops, I just speculated about your motivations again. I guess that makes me a liar. I’m not engaging with you, moron, I’m insulting you. And you’re a liar because you lie, not just because you speculate about motivations. > [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not all that familiar with **brazil84** , other than peeking into the colossal threads he and **GIGObuster** get into from time to time. But I do think that calling someone a liar is pretty serious (especially for a Mod). I have no idea whether he is or isn’t a liar, so could you point to a few of his posts that cause you to believe that he is, in fact, a liar? As opposed to maybe being mistaken? I’m posting as a poster, not a mod, and this is the Pit. If you don’t have enough familiarity with **brazil84** to know that he’s a liar, then piss off. I’m not going to play his stupid games by proxy. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/94 "2012-03-11T22:23:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > On other discussions the solution of brazil84 is always to put the people that do show how moronic his points are on ignore, no wonder he is not aware when called on it now. If only the gods were kind enough to limit brazilnut to simply ignoring you! Nay, the fates are so cruel that brazilnut will [ban you from the internet](http://brazil84.wordpress.com/my-rules-of-debate/) for your sins! Not even a speck of your name shall remain for your loved ones to mourn, only “\*\*\*\*\* \*\*\*\*”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/95 "2012-03-11T22:41:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well said. Actually, **magellan01** , as I noted above, a lot of the responsibility for conflating race category and skin color in this thread rests with you rather than with the people arguing against racial categories. To get back to my question: > [@Kimstu](#): > > In fact, **magellan01** , your comments on race seem kind of self-contradictory. In this thread alone, you’ve said > > > [@magellan01](#): > > > > When we can see a group of people that are best described as Asian, Caucasian and Black, it’s hard to argue that there aren’t differences. […] > > > > Forget the term race if you must. Use “groupings”. And example of one such genetic grouping being those people that have dark skin and kinky hair. […] > > > > Anyway, as far as your point concerning the Black race and Aboriginals, just because a race my have a characteristic like black skin, that doesn’t mean that all people (or groups of people) with black skin are of the Black race. > > First, you seem to be saying that all “people that have dark skin and kinky hair” fall into the same “genetic grouping”, which is called for convenience “the Black race”. > > Then you say that the category of “the Black race” in fact excludes entire populations of “people that have dark skin and kinky hair”, such as Australian Aborigines. > > This makes no sense. What exactly do you actually mean by “the Black race”? I repeat: if you maintain that having black skin doesn’t necessarily confer membership in “the Black race”, then what **are** the criteria for belonging to “the Black race”, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/96 "2012-03-11T22:52:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m posting as a poster, not a mod, and this is the Pit. If you don’t have enough familiarity with **brazil84** to know that he’s a liar, then piss off. I’m not going to play his stupid games by proxy. I didn’t say you weren’t posting as a poster, only that you were a Mod. I think that you’d want to set a good example, but you’re certainly not required to feel the same way. But I am interested in this accusation of liar. I see it thrown around on these boards very casually and carelessly. I’d say that about 95% of the time the “lying” equates to either someone simply being wrong about something or having a different view on what something cited “says”. So, I’d really appreciate knowing if this **brazil** is, in fact, a liar. That way I’ll deal with him even less, or possibly put him on ignore, like I have done with a couple other posters. As far as the boards go, the accusation of lying has been banned in GD. It is allowed in The Pit, yes, but it certainly doesn’t help these boards to have people hurling the accusation when it does not, in fact apply. So I think the accusation should always be able to be substantiated. Which is what I ask of you again. And I assure you, I am no proxy for brazil. I know very little of him and his positions, except that he debates with **GIGO** ad infinitum. I never call anyone a liar unless I can point unambiguously to the untruth and also point to something that indicates that they knew it to be an untruth. I think that’s a good guideline even for the Pit. It just makes for better debating, arguing, even insulting. Otherwise, it amounts to accusations of poopyheadism. Except it has the veneer of being less silly. So, any evidence of this lying? Or were you just shooting off at the mouth hurling random invectives, which is perfectly fine. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/97 "2012-03-11T23:01:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, any evidence of this lying? Or were you just shooting off at the mouth hurling random invectives, which is perfectly fine. Yeah, there’s plenty, but I can’t be bothered. It wasn’t random invective, it was based on my personal experience with **brazil84**. Whether you believe it or not I don’t give a rat’s ass. You have hardly more credibility around here than he does. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/98 "2012-03-11T23:02:05Z")
I’m deeply amused that **brazil84** has \*\*kimstu \*\*on his weasel list. I mean, really? I cannot think of another poster against whom that claim could be more wrong. Its like declaring Christopher Hitchens to be overly timid about revealing his personal views, or Al Sharpton to be wary of engaging on race issues; in other words, a claim so facially absurd as to tell you more than you ever need to know about **brazil84**. The mind just boggles. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/99 "2012-03-11T23:04:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Actually, **magellan01** , as I noted above, a lot of the responsibility for conflating race category and skin color in this thread rests with you rather than with the people arguing against racial categories. To get back to my question: > > I repeat: if you maintain that having black skin doesn’t necessarily confer membership in “the Black race”, then what **are** the criteria for belonging to “the Black race”, in your opinion? What term would you prefer for African Blacks? Negroids? Africanus? Use whatever you’d like. Same for Asians/Orientals…any term you’d like. Caucasians/Whites, whatever you’d like. I’m really not interested in the game of you insisting that any term be as infallible as the definition of isosceles triangle. I’ll tell you what, let’s have a little wager. We’ll take 1,000 random pictures of people. And I have to guess there race. For every one I get correct, you give me a thousand dollars. For every one I get wrong, I give you a thousand dollars. Now I think that their are characteristics (both inward and outward, by the way) that allow one to to identify a person’s race with a high degree of accuracy. So, I think I’ll do really well. But you seem to hold the opposing view, so perhaps you have a high level of confidence that my guesses are likely to be as wrong as they are right and would like to engage in the thousand-person wager. Or would you be me more interested if we flipped the tables, and you were doing the guessing? Surely, you would. Right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246/100 "2012-03-11T23:14:38Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yeah, there’s plenty, but I can’t be bothered. It wasn’t random invective, it was based on my personal experience with **brazil84**. Whether you believe it or not I don’t give a rat’s ass. You have hardly more credibility around here than he does. Be that as it may, you’ve just lowered yours. Maybe you’d like to think about setting higher standards for yourself. And maybe the board should expect a little more from their Mods. Seems like they should set a good example, not a shitty one. As it is, the membership is now left to wonder whether _you_ were lying when you called brazil a liar. Since you seem unwilling or unable to back it up, it does _appear_ so. But I’ll hold off on that _conclusion_ due to insufficient proof. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chen019-you-are-a-liar/615246.md?page=6)