# Cheney criticizes Geneva Conventions -- to West Point cadets **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738 "2007-05-27T23:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/1 "2007-05-27T23:56:15Z")
Story [here.](http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Cheney_criticizes_Geneva_Convention_in_Military_0526.html) (Yes, the source is another lefty blog. The words in question **are** in Cheney’s speech, you can find them in [the official WH transcript,](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070526-1.html) but the [_WaPo_](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/26/AR20070526009) unconscionably ignored them.) > [@](#): > > “Capture one of these killers, and he’ll be quick to demand the protections of the Geneva Convention and the Constitution of the United States,” the Vice President said in the Saturday morning speech. “Yet when they wage attacks or take captives, their delicate sensibilities seem to fall away.” All quite true, though completely irrelevant – but Cheney should be aware that there’s a situation here and he’s not helping matters any: > [@](#): > > Recently, West Point instructors have complained of the difficulty of persuading Army cadets to adhere to the principles of the Geneva Conventions in the war on terrorism. A February article in the New Yorker highlighted a dialog on the problem between West Point’s dean and Joel Surnow, producer of the hit Fox television program ‘24.’ > > “This past November, U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, the dean of the United States Military Academy at West Point, flew to Southern California to meet with the creative team behind ‘24,’” wrote Jane Mayer in the magazine. “Finnegan, who is a lawyer, has for a number of years taught a course on the laws of war to West Point seniors - cadets who would soon be commanders in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. He always tries, he said, to get his students to sort out not just what is legal but what is right. However, it had become increasingly hard to convince some cadets that America had to respect the rule of law and human rights, even when terrorists did not. One reason for the growing resistance, he suggested, was misperceptions spread by ‘24,’ which was exceptionally popular with his students. As he told me, 'The kids see it, and say, '‘If torture is wrong, what about ‘24?’’” _New Yorker_ article [here.](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer?printable=true) Never mind _24,_ how are the instructors supposed to deal with the VP himself undercutting their message?! Not to mention the Republican presidential candidates (except for McCain). By Og, I never thought I’d live to see the day when this would even be a serious **issue!** ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/2 "2007-05-27T23:59:06Z")
Yeah, but where’s the criticism of the Geneva Convention? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/3 "2007-05-28T00:00:37Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Yeah, but where’s the criticism of the Geneva Convention? [/QUOTE] It’s only implied, I acknowledge. My point is that the remarks are in the last degree inappropriate in the setting where they were made. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/4 "2007-05-28T00:04:32Z")
Well, okay, but you shouldn’t have made your thread title factually inaccurate. He critcized the “killers” for demanding protections that they themselve do not extend. It really doesn’t help just to make stuff up, especially when you’ve quoted a source that proves you wrong. Just saying. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/5 "2007-05-28T00:27:21Z")
I’m confused. Cheney is responsible for “24”? How? And I agree with **Liberal**. You lied in your title. You’re just as bad as the politicians you criticize, **BG**. You lie in order to advance your cause. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/6 "2007-05-28T00:41:21Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] It’s only implied, I acknowledge. My point is that the remarks are in the last degree inappropriate in the setting where they were made. [/QUOTE] BG, your title is an outright falsehood. Aside from the fact that it’s not “implied” in Cheney’s words at all, your title is simply, and it appears deliberately, false. Cheney simply did not criticize the Geneva Conventions to West Point cadets, either overtly or by implication. I think you knew this. Your modus operandi on the boards often seems to be to post an inflammatory thread title and then do almost nothing in the OP except link to an article which, as often as not, only partially supports the wording of your own thread title. In this case you’ve just plainly made shit up. Frankly, it’s all kind of tiring. I don’t really see what you’re adding to the discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/7 "2007-05-28T00:52:26Z")
Another bullshit BrainGlutton thread. Why do I even bother? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/8 "2007-05-28T00:53:04Z")
You didn’t catch the tone of scorn in “delicate sensibilities”, apparently. It’s something akin to “quaint” and “obsolete”, to remind you of other descriptions of the Conventions from this administration. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/9 "2007-05-28T01:09:28Z")
**BrainGlutton** , you unspeakable swine! How dare…how _dare_…you lie…LIE! LIE You liar, liar, liar…in your thread title! Clearly, Cheney is displaying many and virile contempt for weak, namby-pamby pussyliberals and their blubbering, nancy boy “treaties” and “humane standards”! That is not, repeat,\*\* not \*\* “criticism”! Heres a definition from an online dictionary, which proves without doubt that I am smart enough to cut and paste something we both know because it conclusively proves something! Here it is: > [@](#): > > …a serious examination and judgment of something… See that, liar! Proves you are a liar! No decent, self-respecting Doper would stoop to discussing this thread on its merits, because it is posted by a thread title liar, and is therefore beneath the contempt of the lowliest noob. Go lay down by your water dish, **BrainGlutton**! Bad **BrainGlutton**! Bad! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/10 "2007-05-28T01:15:24Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m confused. Cheney is responsible for “24”? How? [/QUOTE] If you read that sentence more slowly, it’ll dawn on you that BG is worried about the soon-to-be unit commanders in Iraq thinking of Jack Bauer as a role model, and that Cheney is only reinforcing that view of how to handle “the terrorists”. But if you’d rather just blast a poster for who he is rather than for what he’s saying, to save yourself the hard work of thinking, go right ahead. This is, after all, the proper forum. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/11 "2007-05-28T01:22:05Z")
oh christ. the man is fucking evil, there is no reason to exaggerate for effect. and when you do, you allow your point to be dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/12 "2007-05-28T01:28:34Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] If you read that sentence more slowly, it’ll dawn on you that BG is worried about the soon-to-be unit commanders in Iraq thinking of Jack Bauer as a role model, and that Cheney is only reinforcing that view of how to handle “the terrorists”. [/quote] And if you read Cheney’s speach, you’ll see that his isn’t doing that: > [@](#): > > The standards of this Academy only highlight the deepest and most fundamental difference between the United States and our sworn enemies. A month ago, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Pace, spoke to this class about each officer’s duty to follow a moral compass in all of his or her actions. In these four years you have learned the rules of warfare and professional military ethics. You’ve studied the tenets of morality. You’ve reflected on the seven Army values: of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. You have lived by a code of honor, and internalized that code as West Point men and women always do. Frankly, I think it’s absurd to suggest that West Point cadets can’t differentiate between a TV show and reality. Anyone who watches “24” knows what a joke it is-- you simply can’t get from point A to point B in Los Angeles in 10 minutes. Ever. > [@Elvis](#): > > But if you’d rather just blast a poster for who he is rather than for what he’s saying, to save yourself the hard work of thinking, go right ahead. This is, after all, the proper forum. You’re funny, **Elvis**! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/13 "2007-05-28T01:34:13Z")
As you typically say every one of the countless times you’ve been caught out but can’t force yourself to admit it. The quote you mentioned did not specifically mention either the Conventions or 24. Therefore, using the same standard you yourself apply to **BrainGlutton** , you’re a liar. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/14 "2007-05-28T01:39:14Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] As you typically say every one of the countless times you’ve been caught out but can’t force yourself to admit it [/quote] Dude, you need to stop-- you’re cracking me up, and my sides are splitting!! > [@](#): > > The quote you mentioned did not specifically mention either the Conventions or 24. Therefore, using the same standard you yourself apply to **BrainGlutton** , you’re a liar. Where did I say it referenced either of those things? I said it wasn’t reinforcing the “24” ethos, which it explicitly wasn’t. It was reinforcing the military ethos. You know, the ethos of the guys who kept trying to tell folks like Cheney that torture was counterproductive. Maybe you’re confusing the military with the CIA. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/15 "2007-05-28T02:11:59Z")
Seems to be a lot more subtext and shadow in Cheney’s speech than any distinct theme, any carefully sculpted argument of strategy or morality. Its more symbolism than substance. Jack Bauer gets a lot of press from the tighty righties these days, they like to associate themselves with that imagery, someone who isn’t afraid to go beyond the guideliness (crafted by wussies to thwart _real_ men). The same symbolism appears all over American culture…Dirty Harry being the most spectacular victim of testosterone poisoning. But theres lots more. I hear him urging that sort of ethos on the grads and it rings false, it implies approval for a rebellious, free thinking rule breaker from a born again authoritarian. He offers manly scorn for weakness, a virile and hard headed approach to enemies who are, by definition, the embodiment of evil\*. So he’s not so much criticizing as he is sneering, for his premise, we waves the flag, for his postulate, he scratches his nuts. \*(Except for thread title liars, a whole 'nother category of the Damned…) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/16 "2007-05-28T02:26:18Z")
So, the “24” ethos can be seen in emanations and penubra of the speech. I get it now. It’s there because you want it to be there, not because it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/17 "2007-05-28T02:29:50Z")
Oh Jesus **'luci** , give it up. We know you hate the current administration. Getting behind this OP is beneath even you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/18 "2007-05-28T02:46:09Z")
Any place in particular you’d like to bite me? I could put some ketchup on it. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/19 "2007-05-28T02:50:28Z")
Sure, you could put it on your dick…oh,wait. There, that’s about the level you play at, isn’t it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738/20 "2007-05-28T02:53:30Z")
Your dog will be jealous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-criticizes-geneva-conventions-to-west-point-cadets/405738.md?page=2)