# Cheney, Dick **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214 "2009-05-21T18:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/201 "2009-05-25T14:44:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, read it again, several examples also show that evidence was available then that contradicted what the administration was saying, equivocating and misleading statements were made on purpose. And, they were repeated and embellished. time after time. The sheer repetition points to it being deliberate. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/202 "2009-05-25T15:12:22Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The sheer repetition points to it being deliberate. Yup, having heard doubt being expressed, an honest person would have taken an honest look at the claims they were making. That wasn’t done, at least in any way that anyone could see. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/203 "2009-05-25T15:35:05Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The people gathering and analyzing that evidence were part of the executive branch, and Bush is ultimately responsible for them. If the evidence did support the WMD claims (and I don’t concede that point) then they did a damn poor job of gathering it. If you want to defend Bush’s honesty, fine; but is it any better to say that in a vital role the administration was grossly incompetent? I know **Starving Artist** will continue with the disingenuous attempts to defend Bush’s “honesty” (even equivocation is a lie as my ethics teacher told me once), but even if we go there, Cheney’s efforts then and now show that Grey’s law is true: “Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/204 "2009-05-25T16:01:03Z")
Perhaps we should have two Memorial Days. One public, with all the pomp and circumstance, to remember men who did, in truth, give their lives to defend a grateful nation. There aren’t enough brass bands and fine speeches for such as they, nothing fills the emptiness of good men gone. But we can try. And another, more sombre and private, to remember those whose lives were less than toilet paper to the men who signed their orders, and sent them on ignoble and futile missions to die for lies. And, perhaps worse, to kill for lies. Nothing fills the obscene emptiness of good men squandered, but perhaps we can promise them that nothing like this will happen to their children and grandchildren, that never again will we salute the wretched “patriotism” of flag-waving monsters. We can promise, but we can’t be certain. But we can try. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/205 "2009-05-25T17:10:45Z")
As \*\*elucidator \*\*points out, this is memorial day. And we should not forget that military men that also fought in WWII, prosecuted the guilty and set a precedent for future generations. Spencer Tracy as Chief Judge Dan Haywood delivers the verdict at the Nuremberg trial: ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/OLFEW0Hq7-0/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/OLFEW0Hq7-0?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque > [@](#): > > The real complaining party at the bar in this courtroom is civilization. But the Tribunal does say that the men in the dock are responsible for their actions, men who sat in black robes in judgment on other men, men who took part in the enactment of laws and decrees, the purpose of which was the extermination of humans beings, men who in executive positions actively participated in the enforcement of these laws – illegal even under German law. The principle of criminal law in every civilized society has this in common: Any person who sways another to commit murder, any person who furnishes the lethal weapon for the purpose of the crime, any person who is an accessory to the crime – is guilty. The trials of the German judges were all held before U.S. military courts. [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Alstoetter.htm](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Alstoetter.htm) I salute all the military men and women that took part in the trials. And condemn the jurists and lawmen that told the Bush administration what they wanted to hear regarding torture. [http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/18-13](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/18-13) > [@](#): > > 13 key people in the Bush administration cannot claim they relied on the memos from the DOJ’s Office of Legal Counsel. Some of the 13 manipulated the federal bureaucracy and the legal process to “preauthorize” torture in the days after 9/11. Others helped implement torture, and still others helped write the memos that provided the Bush administration with a legal fig leaf after torture had already begun. > > The Torture 13 exploited the federal bureaucracy to establish a torture regime in two ways. First, they based the enhanced interrogation techniques on techniques used in the U.S. military’s Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) program. The program – which subjects volunteers from the armed services to simulated hostile capture situations – trains servicemen and -women to withstand coercion well enough to avoid making false confessions if captured. Two retired SERE psychologists contracted with the government to “reverse-engineer” these techniques to use in detainee interrogations. > > The Torture 13 also abused the legal review process in the Department of Justice in order to provide permission for torture. The DOJ’s Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) played a crucial role. OLC provides interpretations on how laws apply to the executive branch. On issues where the law is unclear, like national security, OLC opinions can set the boundary for “legal” activity for executive branch employees. As Jack Goldsmith, OLC head from 2003 to 2004, explains it, “One consequence of [OLC’s] power to interpret the law is the power to bestow on government officials what is effectively an advance pardon for actions taken at the edges of vague criminal statutes.” OLC has the power, Goldsmith continues, to dispense “get-out-of-jail-free cards.” The Torture 13 exploited this power by collaborating on a series of OLC opinions that repeatedly gave U.S. officials such a “get-out-of-jail-free card” for torturing. > > Between 9/11 and the end of 2002, the Torture 13 decided to torture, then reverse-engineered the techniques, and then crafted the legal cover. Here’s who they are and what they did: > > 1. Dick Cheney, vice president (2001-2009) > > On the morning of 9/11, after the evacuation of the White House, Dick Cheney summoned his legal counsel, David Addington, to return to work. The two had worked together for years. In the 1980s, when Cheney was a congressman from Wyoming and Addington a staff attorney to another congressman, Cheney and Addington argued that in Iran-Contra, the president could ignore congressional guidance on foreign policy matters. Between 1989 and 1992, when Dick Cheney was the elder George Bush’s secretary of defense, Addington served as his counsel. He and Cheney saved the only known copies of abusive interrogation technique manuals taught at the School of the Americas. Now, on the morning of 9/11, they worked together to plot an expansive grab of executive power that they claimed was the correct response to the terrorist threat. Within two weeks, they had gotten a memo asserting almost unlimited power for the president as “the sole organ of the Nation in its foreign relations,” to respond to the terrorist attacks. As part of that expansive view of executive power, Cheney and Addington would argue that domestic and international laws prohibiting torture and abuse could not prevent the president from authorizing harsh treatment of detainees in the war against terror. > > \*\*But Cheney and Addington also fought bureaucratically to construct this torture program. Cheney led the way by controlling who got access to President Bush – and making sure his own views preempted others’. Each time the torture program got into trouble as it spread around the globe, Cheney intervened to ward off legal threats and limits, by badgering the CIA’s inspector general when he reported many problems with the interrogation program, and by lobbying Congress to legally protect those who had tortured. > > Most shockingly, Cheney is reported to have ordered torture himself, even after interrogators believed detainees were cooperative. Since the 2002 OLC memo known as “Bybee Two” that authorizes torture premises its authorization for torture on the assertion that “the interrogation team is certain that” the detainee “has additional information he refuses to divulge,” Cheney appears to have ordered torture that was illegal even under the spurious guidelines of the memo.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/206 "2009-05-25T17:22:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Perhaps we should have two Memorial Days. Oh, please, no! One is more than enough! And in fact it has been going on all weekend already. I am already sick of all the militaristic nationalism, the military, patriotic music, the speeches. Enough is enough. I know of no other country on Earth which takes its nationalist fervor to this level. This is dangerous and ought to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/207 "2009-05-25T17:33:58Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I know of no other country on Earth which takes its nationalist fervor to this level. This is dangerous and ought to stop. Ha! What ridiculous and ignorant hyperbole. Remembering war dead is certainly nationalistic. But it pales in comparison to the nationalism on display on any given day in China or a half-dozen other countries, which is to say nothing of their actual national holidays. You need to travel a bit more, mate. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/208 "2009-05-25T17:44:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Ha! What ridiculous and ignorant hyperbole. Remembering war dead is certainly nationalistic. But it pales in comparison to the nationalism on display on any given day in China or a half-dozen other countries, which is to say nothing of their actual national holidays. > > You need to travel a bit more, mate. Seeing as I spend quite a bit of my time in China and that I recently returned after some weeks there I think you are ill informed. I have not seen anything like this in China but maybe you can enlighten me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/209 "2009-05-25T17:55:42Z")
Larger point still stands, militaristic nationalism is a cancer on our species. You got guys marching for the glory of Greater Serbia, for crying out loud. Killing for it, too. What can be more pitifully disgusting than a bloodthirsty patriot for a third-rate nation? By the way, how’s that Grenada memorial coming along? Sure covered ourselves with glory on that one, didn’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/210 "2009-05-25T18:07:47Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Seeing as I spend quite a bit of my time in China and that I recently returned after some weeks there I think you are ill informed. I have not seen anything like this in China but maybe you can enlighten me. Unless you’re the kind of expat that just lounges on the golf course with other expats, or you spend all your time in Shanghai, it’s hard to understand how you could miss it. We can start with daily exercise drills blared from the loudspeakers of most schools and universities counting to five and reciting various aspects of _Gaige Kaifang_. Then there are tank parades or other public military exercises once a month in any major interior city. If you pick up a daily paper (really any of them will do), half of the articles are rallying nationalism in the face of some perceived sleight or another. Every other business name is some symbol of Han nationalism: Great Wall this or that. Many of the best-selling books in the last two decades have been nationalist screeds like _China Can Say No_. Don’t even get me started on Olympics. You wanna talk about nationalist fervor. Putting aside the event itself, when China _won the bid_–some seven years before the actual event, mind you–people were literally dancing in the streets and school kids across the country were suddenly wearing Olympic-themed PE uniforms. If you happen to be in China for one of these moments, some kind of international incident (embassy bombing, plane collision, naval maneuvers, taiwan arms sales, etc.) or on a national holiday, then you’ll see the true meaning of nationalist fervor. We’re talking college kids on the streets waiving PRC flags. That’s just things I’ve personally witnessed. There is a heap of academic literature on comparative nationalism, and no one seriously argues that the US is anywhere close to the top of that pile. You can PM me when US state schools start broadcasting Reagan’s speeches over loudspeakers at 6am, when tanks roll down DC streets for military parades, or when there are nationwide protests because British textbooks omit some of the details of the Revolutionary War. > [@elucidator](#): > > Larger point still stands, militaristic nationalism is a cancer on our species. There’s a pretty wide gap between overwrought militaristic nationalism and honoring war dead. Memorial day was initiated to honor Union soldiers killed in the Civil War. Hard to find a most just cause than that one. I don’t agree with every US military action. But I don’t have to in order to recognized that these kids made the ultimate sacrifice and unless you think we shouldn’t have a nation at all, you owe them a few moments of gratitude once a year. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/211 "2009-05-25T18:13:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > … you owe them a few moments of gratitude once a year. Never said otherwise. If I’m going to have words put in my mouth, I’d prefer they weren’t poisonous. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/212 "2009-05-25T18:15:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Never said otherwise. If I’m going to have words put in my mouth, I’d prefer they weren’t poisonous. So what exactly was your point then ' **luc**? Either memorial day is an example of militaristic nationalism, which you call a “cancer on our species,” or it isn’t. I assumed “cancer on our species” was pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/213 "2009-05-25T18:16:57Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > He also mildly rebuked Rush recently, so I think it’s safe to say Tom’s GOP days are numbered. I don’t know. If they keep alienating enough members of the GOP who then do not quit the GOP they might actually be able to create a serious intraparty opposition. If that happened I might register Republican again. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/214 "2009-05-25T18:36:07Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The people gathering and analyzing that evidence were part of the executive branch, and Bush is ultimately responsible for them. If the evidence did support the WMD claims (and I don’t concede that point) then they did a damn poor job of gathering it. If you want to defend Bush’s honesty, fine; but is it any better to say that in a vital role the administration was grossly incompetent? [http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete\_911\_timeline&complete\_911\_timeline\_key\_events=complete\_911\_timeline\_key\_warnings](http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&complete_911_timeline_key_events=complete_911_timeline_key_warnings) The 911 Timeline is a compilation of events surrounding the crashes. It is a collection of stories in international newspapers. It’s facts seems to have the same lefty bias that the truth has. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/215 "2009-05-25T18:41:37Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > There’s a pretty wide gap between overwrought militaristic nationalism and honoring war dead. Memorial day was initiated to honor Union soldiers killed in the Civil War. Hard to find a most just cause than that one. I don’t agree with every US military action. But I don’t have to in order to recognized that these kids made the ultimate sacrifice and unless you think we shouldn’t have a nation at all, you owe them a few moments of gratitude once a year. Memorial Day in America may have started whichever way it started but today it is unbridled militaristic and nationalistic. It is all about creating an aura that these people died for something good and others should take note and follow. There is absolutely no question about _why_ they died and why they would not have died if America was not the militaristic bully that it is. Every few minutes I see a “hero” on TV. He died or had his brains blown off in Iraq. You know what? He did not belong in Iraq. The reason he died was the enormous crime committed by his country and he was a part of that crime. He had no business in Iraq. The reason he died was that the American people want to be the world bullies. It is the American people who bear the responsibility for these deaths and injuries. He did not die _defending_ his country. He died in the commission of a crime committed by his country and his country bears responsibility for his death. Remembrance for the Iraqis who died or were injured or displaced or lost their property or limb. That I can get behind. Or trials demanding responsibility to all those responsible for the war in Iraq which is the cause of all these deaths. But this day is a day for America to assert its aggressive military policies and that is why you see ads on TV paid by the military companies like Lockheed and KBR. It is nothing but pure militaristic nationalism. If America cared about the lives of soldiers they would not go around starting wars. No, America cares about being the macho guys in the gang and they exalt that macho aspect. That is what memorial day is. And that is what the 4th of July is. And militaristic nationalism certainly is a cancer on our species and it is to be condemned and I condemn it everywhere it happens, including China. But Americans just lack the perspective to see how militaristic their society is when compared to other developed, democratic countries. Things like this would be unthinkable in European countries. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/216 "2009-05-25T18:45:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So what exactly was your point then ' **luc**? Either memorial day is an example of militaristic nationalism, which you call a “cancer on our species,” or it isn’t. I assumed “cancer on our species” was pejorative. I thought he made himself clear above: Memorial Day today has components of both remembering and honoring the fallen, _and_ the cancer of militaristic nationalism. He’d like to see those bifurcated into two separate holidays, and [del]celebrate[/del] observe the cancerous one by dousing the “patriotic” tumors represented by Cheney, et al, in the chemotherapy of public opprobrium. Sorry if I’m putting words in your mouth, **'luc**. I hope I’ve captured the gist of your meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/217 "2009-05-25T18:51:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I thought he made himself clear above: Memorial Day today has components of both remembering and honoring the fallen, _and_ the cancer of militaristic nationalism. He’d like to see those bifurcated into two separate holidays, and [del]celebrate[/del] observe the cancerous one by dousing the “patriotic” tumors represented by Cheney, et al, in the chemotherapy of public opprobrium. I took him to be disagreeing with what I said in some respect. Since that point isn’t in conflict with what I said, I assumed he was referring to some other point. A miscommunication, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/218 "2009-05-25T18:57:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > There’s a pretty wide gap between overwrought militaristic nationalism and honoring war dead. It’s not so wide when people insist that even the most recent of those war dead died for a purpose beyond furthering one political party’s ambition to hold a permanent majority. It’s too bad so many have died fighting under false pretenses, but it hardly honors them to pretend that they were dying for “our freedom.” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/219 "2009-05-25T19:09:56Z")
I have been in the UK a few times on Armistice day and they manage to honor their fallen without all the militaristic and nationalistic overtones present in America. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214/220 "2009-05-25T19:17:03Z")
> [@](#): > > And that’s your version of knowledgeable and intelligent argument, I suppose? Only when I am dealing with morons, of which you happen to be a prime specimen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-dick/497214.md?page=12)