# Cheney says he alone can decide which of his records go to National Archives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932 "2008-12-19T17:13:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/21 "2008-12-20T03:01:20Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > What is our form of government based on if not the supposition that government at its essence is the property of the people? > > But to play along a bit: > > By my lights the Patriot Act was created to empower the government and law enforcement to mine enough data to be able to suss out terrorist plots before they have a chance to hatch. > > Now, if you want to argue that presidential records are going to be useful in rooting out acts of wanton criminality… well… you’ll get no argument from me. However, I generally don’t expect to admissions of criminal behavior in such records. > > Your position would seem to suggest that the government has the ability to claim presumption of innocence the same as any citizen, when IMO the purpose of presumption of innocence is to protect the citizen against the government. I was saying that they are part of official record, and so are government property. I had no intention of going after a “let’s get the bastids” approach, and that would be damn hard to pull off anyway (I’m against witch hunts). But, how much of this paper might be important for future administrations? Future presidents and staffers might not want to go in completely blind. At least let the right people have access under the Need To Know, people who might actually need to have access. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/22 "2008-12-20T03:06:04Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > But, how much of this paper might be important for future administrations? Future presidents and staffers might not want to go in completely blind. At least let the right people have access under the Need To Know, people who might actually need to have access. . . . Come to think of it, that answers my question in post #20. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/23 "2008-12-20T03:12:01Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I was saying that they are part of official record, and so are government property. I had no intention of going after a “let’s get the bastids” approach, and that would be damn hard to pull off anyway (I’m against witch hunts). But, how much of this paper might be important for future administrations? Future presidents and staffers might not want to go in completely blind. At least let the right people have access under the Need To Know, people who might actually need to have access. I think we’re on the same side of the issue and only now do I realize it. :smack: I thought you were responding to Euphonious Polemic’s apt characterization of Cheney’s position wrt these records by rhetorically asking why it was not valid for the Sith Lord to take such a (wide) stance regarding these papers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/24 "2008-12-20T03:24:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Bush seems to think there are some . . . but does not actually say what they are.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13233) > > Thing is, under the PRA Cheney’s records only have to be made available to the public after 12 years. What’s he so worried about? Do you know how hard it is to get braaaaaaiiiiiiiiins! in a prison cafeteria? Not a walk in the park, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/25 "2008-12-20T03:36:27Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > I think we’re on the same side of the issue and only now do I realize it. :smack: > > I thought you were responding to Euphonious Polemic’s apt characterization of Cheney’s position wrt these records by rhetorically asking why it was not valid for the Sith Lord to take such a (wide) stance regarding these papers. There would always be the problem of security and sensitivity. Although picturing Darth Cheney, with helmet and everything, is sort of fun. There should be more openness in government, but some things will and should be secret/classified. The best example is military hardware and strategy. You never want the bad guys to know your true capabilities. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/26 "2008-12-20T03:57:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Memos where Cheney says “Yes I’d love to attend the opening of the Puppy Rescue Society Dinner” are OK to be released. To be fair, before it was redacted, that memo was in regards to the Drowned **Puppy** Lovers/ **Rescue** d Satanists Anonymous/Scourge on Society **Society** /‘Babies for **Dinner** on Tuesdays’ joint jamboree that Dick puts together every labor day. If anybody could get the Drowned Puppy Loves and the Baby eaters to put away their differences and get together for a day of evil once a year, it was Dick Cheney and his rumpus room at the Naval Observatory. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/27 "2008-12-20T03:57:49Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > There would always be the problem of security and sensitivity. Although picturing Darth Cheney, with helmet and everything, is sort of fun. > There should be more openness in government, but some things will and should be secret/classified. The best example is military hardware and strategy. You never want the bad guys to know your true capabilities. Ever. National security, eh? It’s almost time for sleep, so I’ll have to revisit the PRA tomorrow. But I’m going to WAG for now and imagine that the PRA has measures to deal with sensitive matters–the volume of what Cheney is trying to bring home to Wyoming, though? That dog just don’t hunt. And it just doesn’t follow that Dickie alone gets to pick and choose what materials are considered ‘sensitive’. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/28 "2008-12-20T04:01:49Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > National security, eh? > > It’s almost time for sleep, so I’ll have to revisit the PRA tomorrow. > > But I’m going to WAG for now and imagine that the PRA has measures to deal with sensitive matters–the volume of what Cheney is trying to bring home to Wyoming, though? That dog just don’t hunt. And it just doesn’t follow that Dickie alone gets to pick and choose what materials are considered ‘sensitive’. Exactly. Other people have to decide. His house in Wyoming wouldn’t be secure enough anyway, if he did intend to “archive” any secret data there. There are regulations that dictate just how different security levels of records are to be treated. Those rules are not just for show. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/29 "2008-12-20T07:12:25Z")
No, its entirely clear that the Constitution unequivocally empowers the Vice President, at his sole discretion, to make those decisions. For reasons of national security, those sections of the Constitution were redacted. The Founders realized that without such discretionary VP power, the Toryists would win! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/30 "2008-12-20T21:55:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, no, the VP is a member of the legislative **or** executive branch depending on the situation – it’s a matter of quantum uncertainty, like Schrodinger’s Cat. This fits – he’s already one of those half-alive, half-dead types. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/31 "2008-12-21T00:42:46Z")
Nope - the law says the archivist has the final say - so he’s out of luck there. I am intrigued, though - lawmakers that have insisted on executive branch openness through this legislation haven’t seemed to impose it upon themselves. Congressmen retain their papers upon retirement or loss of office, and can dispose of such as they see fit. [Cite.](http://www.archives.gov/legislative/guide/senate/chapter-01-other-sources.html) Now - it is certainly true that the archives of presidential administrations are invaluable to historians - but I think that can be said about congressional papers as well. So I wonder why it is not mandated that these be archived in a similar way. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/32 "2008-12-21T01:03:41Z")
I think that you should encourage your representative to propose legislation to this effect. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/33 "2008-12-21T01:10:34Z")
I’m intrigued by the quantic theory. Does it mean that when Cheney knows which branch he’s in, he cannot know how fast (and loose) he’s playing with the law ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/34 "2008-12-21T02:48:59Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Nope - the law says the archivist has the final say - so he’s out of luck there. As I understand it, the final say over the disposition of whatever records **come into the archivist’s hands.** That’s the stage at which Cheney is trying to erect a firewall. > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I am intrigued, though - lawmakers that have insisted on executive branch openness through this legislation haven’t seemed to impose it upon themselves. Congressmen retain their papers upon retirement or loss of office, and can dispose of such as they see fit. > > [Cite.](http://www.archives.gov/legislative/guide/senate/chapter-01-other-sources.html) > > Now - it is certainly true that the archives of presidential administrations are invaluable to historians - but I think that can be said about congressional papers as well. So I wonder why it is not mandated that these be archived in a similar way. > > Thoughts? Because Congress makes these decisions and there is no provision for any one else to do so, of course, but also because of the disparity in power – the record of what an individual Congresscritter does in office (as distinct from the proceedings of Congress as a whole, which **is** very much a matter of public record on all matters not expressly classified or conducted in closed hearings) is much less important than the record of the doings of a presidential administration, even its lowest-level West Wing functionaries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/35 "2008-12-21T02:50:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m intrigued by the quantic theory. Does it mean that when Cheney knows which branch he’s in, he cannot know how fast (and loose) he’s playing with the law ? He can’t know both at once, it’s a corollary to the Heisenberg Principle. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/36 "2008-12-21T05:06:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > He can’t know both at once, it’s a corollary to the Heisenberg Principle. But is he always there, or only when he is observed to be there? That whole Schrodinger thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/37 "2008-12-21T05:40:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because Congress makes these decisions and there is no provision for any one else to do so, of course, but also because of the disparity in power – the record of what an individual Congresscritter does in office (as distinct from the proceedings of Congress as a whole, which **is** very much a matter of public record on all matters not expressly classified or conducted in closed hearings) is much less important than the record of the doings of a presidential administration, even its lowest-level West Wing functionaries. Tell me - who was more consequential in American history - Dan Quayle or Tip O’Neill? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/38 "2008-12-21T08:09:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > He can’t know both at once, it’s a corollary to the Heisenberg Principle. Err, yes. That was the ummm… funny bit actually, y’see ? 'cause if he knows where he is… and what with the Uncertainty Principle… ? No ? Oh, sod it. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/39 "2008-12-21T16:51:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Err, yes. That was the ummm… funny bit actually, y’see ? 'cause if he knows where he is… and what with the Uncertainty Principle… ? No ? > > Oh, sod it. It didn’t go completely unappreciated. Also very nice was **Kaylasdad** ’s answer to the question about why the legislative branch wasn’t required to preserve their (potentially embarassing ) records: > [@](#): > > I think that you should encourage your representative to propose legislation to this effect. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932/40 "2008-12-21T17:00:47Z")
Well, golly gee, **Moto** , don’t you want those records out? I mean, don’t you want the opportunity to brag on how thoughtful, intelligent, and prescient the Pubbies were all these years? Surely you want the chance to crow about the brilliant decisions made, and the bold new vision for America’s future? You guys are just too modest, that’s the problem! That’s why Bush has kept the Reagan Papers embargoed for, loathe, these many years! You would be embarrassed to have Americans openly sobbing with gratitude and approval. Yes, that must be it. But I, for one, won’t stand for it! Let the public know, don’t hide your light under a basket! Let the public see who made the decisions, and why, and the future of the Republcan Party will be assured! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-says-he-alone-can-decide-which-of-his-records-go-to-national-archives/477932.md?page=3)