# Cheney still has money ties to Halliburton **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021 "2003-09-26T18:15:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/21 "2003-09-27T15:30:03Z")
What prevented industry giants like [Bechtel](http://www.bechtel.com/newsarticles/195.asp) and [Fluor](http://www.fluor.com/industries/industries.asp) from getting a shot at the bidding process? Bechtel is _already_ in Iraq and Fluor is one of the largest infrastructure companies in _the entire world_. Either of these industrial giants could fart out an operational petroleum refinery complex in their sleep and not even have to wash their drawers afterwards. So don’t hand me this horseradish about how, “Halliburton is the major player in oil services infrastructure. Who else should they have chosen for this?” This is flat out cronyism, pure and simple. If Cheny holds (even trust-bound) stock options in Halliburton, that company’s enhanced business prospects increases the value of the stock held in it and thereby directly contributes to the potential wealth of Cheny. From Bechtel’s website: > [@](#): > > "Bechtel’s Al-Khobar office is part of a seamless international organization offering customers a consistent level of quality in engineering, construction, and support services. Bechtel also maintains executive offices in Riyadh, and is participating in numerous projects throughout the Kingdom, including the Ghazlan electric generating complex, Jubail and Yanbu infrastructure activities, the Shaybah oil and gas production complex, Aramco general engineering services, the Kingdom Trade Center project, and the TEP-6 telecommunications project. > > Bechtel has been active in Saudi Arabia since 1944. Since its initial assignment on the Ras Tanura refinery, the firm has participated in more than 250 projects in the Kingdom, including power plants and pipelines, water and telecommunications systems, refineries, airports, highways, even entire industrial cities." From Fluor’s website: > [@](#): > > “Fluor has a long tradition of serving the worldwide petroleum refining industry from high value opportunity assessment studies to final-product deliveries to market. These services extend from initial business evaluation studies, detailed feasibility studies, front-end engineering package development, detailed engineering, procurement and construction, to final commissioning, start-up, and operations and maintenance services, for grassroots, expansion and revamp projects.” ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/22 "2003-09-27T15:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > Do you then propose that no person who receives a pension be eligible for elective office? Should the high offices of the land be reserved exclusively for lawyers and owners of capital? Or is owning capital also disqualifying? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > As has already been explained to you, Cheney does not stand to profit. He has taken public steps in accordance with law and custom to divorce himself from the possibility of profiting directly from the success of his former company. Gentlemen, please allow me to draw your attention to a matter you have thus far studiously avoided: _ **unexercised stock options** _. Have you any comment on that particular item of ongoing financial interest? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/23 "2003-09-27T15:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Gentlemen, please allow me to draw your attention to a matter you have thus far studiously avoided: _ **unexercised stock options** _. > > Have you any comment on that particular item of ongoing financial interest? \*\* Yeah. You don’t read well. Cheney has hedged out his interest in the options. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/24 "2003-09-27T15:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*Well now, it’s really hard to base these attacks on facts when Cheney **will not divulge them.** Why should he? > [@](#): > > \*\*But these _are_ the facts as we know them: > > Cheney has a continuing financial interest in Halliburton. (Can someone explain to me how a person can own unexercised stock options in a company and _not_ have an interest in the future of that company?) \*\* For the third time his interest is hedged out. He neither gets poor if the stock goes down nor richer if the stock goes up. > [@](#): > > \*\*Cheney had White House Task Force on Energy discussions _while Vice President of the United States_ but won’t tell the GOA what it was they discussed (won’t even say who was in on the discussions) because _it’s not their buisness_! \*\* Yup. So? > [@](#): > > \*\*Halliburton gets a no-bid billion dollar contract to rebuild Iraq. > > Still, according to the **Scylla** , any questioning of these facts are “innuendo based attacks”. \*\* Don’t put words in my mouth. I have no problem with questioning them. I have a problem with morons that draw conclusions from this paucity of facts. > [@](#): > > \*\*How about who Cheney discussed national policy with, what it was they discussed and how these discussions influenced our national energy policy. \*\* Well you see, there’s all these other countries and company and such that would really like to no exactly what we are doing and thinking so they can take advantage of the fact. Do you play poker with your cards showing? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/25 "2003-09-27T15:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dead Badger \* > \*\*For some reason, I don’t believe it’s the innuendo with which you have a problem. \*\* Bullshit. I’m pointing out that was being suggested was impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/26 "2003-09-27T15:56:57Z")
Zenster: Bechtel is involved in the Iraw reconstruction in a big way, as I beleive is Fluor. Do you know if Bechtel was awarded by competitive bid? Are you sure that competitive bid would have been appropriate in either case? I’m pretty sure that they would not have been as we are talking about projects where costs and scope are difficult to define. And Cheney’s options are hedged for the fourth time. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/27 "2003-09-27T16:11:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > > > > Well now, it’s really hard to base these attacks on facts when Cheney will not divulge them. > > Why should he? Because I want to know, as does the GOA, as should we all _want_ to know how our government is being run. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > > [@](#): > > > > But these are the facts as we know them: > > > > Cheney has a continuing financial interest in Halliburton. (Can someone explain to me how a person can own unexercised stock options in a company and not have an interest in the future of that company?) > > For the third time his interest is hedged out. He neither gets poor if the stock goes down nor richer if the stock goes up. For the second time, how is hedging removing your interest in the future of the company? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Don’t put words in my mouth. I have no problem with questioning them. I have a problem with morons that draw conclusions from this paucity of facts. I didn’t put words in your mouth. I quoted you directly. The conclusion I’m drawing is that Cheney is hiding something. Because he is. He’s hiding if from the GOA and the public. _What_ he is hiding is what I can’t figure out because of the paucity of the facts. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Well you see, there’s all these other countries and company and such that would really like to no exactly what we are doing and thinking so they can take advantage of the fact. > > Do you play poker with your cards showing? \*\* No, but I like my government much more transparent then I want a card game to be. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/28 "2003-09-27T16:20:13Z")
Ya know, **Scylla** , maybe Cheny is under no _legal_ obligation whatsoever to reveal one whit of what went on behind closed doors. How about _ethical_ obligations? All I can say is that right after these negotiations went down, one of the biggest commercial failures in America’s history tapped out the retirement and stock accounts of countless thousands of Americans, to the tune of millions and millions of dollars. I fully understand that these two events may have no connection in the least. The average Joe is still entitled to be _extremely_ curious about whatever closed-door sessions went on in the White House with these scoundrels. Any politician with even a single lonely still-firing-and-soon-to-be-excreted neuron knows that full disclosure is one of the only ways to disspell any air of suspicion in the matter. Cheny _et al_ have done the exact opposite. Certainly, it is the electorate’s privelige to not vote for this elite crew of liars and cheats the next time around. Yet, there still remains the issue of personal enrichment while in office and other possible tort offenses that cannot be resolved merely by voting. The American people are being treated to a revolting spectacle of secretive government _a la_ star chamber that has no place in our political system. I believe it was John Jay that said: “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.” This quote is one that Shrub’s Flying Monkey Gang™ should take deeply to heart. Instead, they are, to a man, wiping their asses with it. After all is said and done, I do not think that history shall judge them over kindly. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/29 "2003-09-27T16:21:25Z")
Biggirl: > [@](#): > > For the second time, how is hedging removing your interest in the future of the company? In this case, Yes. > [@](#): > > Because I want to know, as does the GOA, as should we all want to know how our government is being run. SNL did a bit after the first gulf war. It was a press conference. Reproters would ask the Generals “What piece of information would we want most not to fall into the enemy’s hands?” > [@](#): > > I didn’t put words in your mouth. I quoted you directly. No Ma’am. You did not. You took three words out of context and placed them in front of your own construed phrase. > [@](#): > > The conclusion I’m drawing is that Cheney is hiding something. Because he is. He’s hiding if from the GOA and the public. What he is hiding is what I can’t figure out because of the paucity of the facts. Well yeah. Some info is necessarily nonpublic. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/30 "2003-09-27T16:22:23Z")
That should have read, “This _sublime_ quote …” I know of few better in the legal world. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/31 "2003-09-27T16:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > In this case, Yes. But _how_? Seriously. Explain it like I’m a six year old. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/32 "2003-09-27T16:33:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Yeah. You don’t read well. > > Cheney has hedged out his interest in the options. \*\* No **you** do not read well. We have provided you a Cite that says the opposite: > [@](#): > > A Congressional Research Service report released yesterday concluded that federal ethics laws treat Vice President Cheney’s annual deferred compensation checks and unexercised stock options as continuing financial interests in the Halliburton Co. > > Democrats have aggressively challenged Cheney’s claim that he has no financial ties to Halliburton, despite those arrangements. > > The Houston-based energy conglomerate has been awarded more than $2 billion in contracts for rebuilding Iraq, including one worth $1.22 billion that was awarded on a noncompetitive basis. In case you missed it. Your _opinion_ has been rejected by the Congressional Research Service. Fact: as a matter of federal ethics laws **he still has a continuing financial interest in the Company which recieved a closed door billion dollar no-bid contract**. As they say in law school, when the law is on your side, pound on the law, if the facts are on your side, pound on the facts, if neither are on your side- pound on the table. Your arguments are nothing more then table pounding. I expected more out of you. As far as the intentionally ironic crack about innuendo based attacks- please show me the cite where you complained about the Whitewater and Hillary investment based attacks as unfairly innuendo based. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/33 "2003-09-27T16:33:41Z")
**Scylla** when asked “How is this blah blah blah”, to answer “Yes” does not, in fact, answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Ben\_Hicks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbce88/32.png) [@Ben\_Hicks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben_Hicks)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/34 "2003-09-27T16:45:30Z")
> [@](#): > > A Congressional Research Service report released yesterday concluded that federal ethics laws treat Vice President Cheney’s annual deferred compensation checks and unexercised stock options as continuing financial interests in the Halliburton Co. This aint my area of expertise by any stretch of the imagination so maybe I should stay out of this but I’m confused. The Congressional Research Service may count Cheney’s comp checks as continuing financial interests in Halliburton but AFAIK that is only in the broadest sense of the definition. IOW he is regarded as having continuing financial interests in the company but only because he still takes money from them. **Scylla’s** point seems to be that the amount of money he gets is fixed and as such he has no incentive to do special favours for the Halliburton Group. One of the many things I’m not sure of is how Cheney was able to fix it so that his compensation checks were independant of the company’s stock options. Can someone open a few cans of whoopass on my ignorance here? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/35 "2003-09-27T16:49:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben Hicks \* > \*\*But _how_? Seriously. Explain it like I’m a six year old. \*\* He purchases an opposing option (presumably a put), one where the profitability of the option moves in the opposite direction of the original option relative to changes in stick price (e.g., if a stock increase makes the first option more valuable, it reduces the the value of the second). This is typically structured in a way that it algebraically guarantees a specific return, no more, no less, and the holder accepts the fact that he has conceded a potentially much-higher return for the guarantee that the investment will never be a loser. It also effectively makes the company’s stock price a matter of complete financial indifference to the holder of the option/hedge. I’m not familiar with all the details of Cheney’s deal, but that’s how a hedge typically works. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/36 "2003-09-27T16:50:07Z")
> [@](#): > > In this case, Yes. How? This is not a rhetorical question. The Congressional Research Service says different. Can someone dispell my suspicions on this? I mean real ignorance iradication. > [@](#): > > SNL did a bit after the first gulf war. It was a press conference. Reproters would ask the Generals “What piece of information would we want most not to fall into the enemy’s hands?” So you are equating the public interest to the enemy in this analogy? The GOA is The White House Task Force on Energy’s enemy? > [@](#): > > No Ma’am. You did not. You took three words out of context and placed them in front of your own construed phrase. Here they are in context: > [@](#): > > I don’t care what it smacks of. What happened that was wrong? What did Cheney do that he shouldn’t have? > > Calling it “legal obfuscation” whatever that it means, and invoking Nixon doesn’t make it true. > I truly hate these innuendo based attacks. If you have an actual issue, display it. Failing that all we have is a disingenuous little whine. Here is either a whole thread filled with issues that need to be addressed or, as **Scylla** has described it --here comes some another on of those out-of-context quotes that somehow obscures the _real_ meaning of **Scylla’s** words–“disingenuous little whine[s].” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/37 "2003-09-27T17:00:28Z")
**Scylla** is wrong when he says Cheney hedged out on the options. Cheney hedged himself out on the deferred compensation, not on the options. Cheney is saying he has no financial stake tied to the unexercised options because he’s agreed to donate the aftertax profits from the eventual exercise of those options to charity. Just wanted to clear that up. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/38 "2003-09-27T17:01:22Z")
I know how hegding works in general. My question is how is Cheney’s portfolio hedged so that his interest in the future of Halliburton is null? Once source says he has no money ties to the future of Halliburton and another that says he does. P.S.,[Here’s a page that explains options for those of you who like reading that gives you a headache.](http://www.tmtfinancial.be/eng/options.htm) Coulda been written by my boss-- Mr. Thrubbin Temple Vein. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/39 "2003-09-27T17:08:16Z")
I didn’t see **Dewey’s** post even with preview. Anyways, that primer on options should keep many busy for, I dunno, whole seconds before they scratch their heads and ask “Can I buy a sell and sell it before I buy any stock?” ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021/40 "2003-09-27T17:26:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > \*\* Cheney is saying he has no financial stake tied to the unexercised options because he’s agreed to donate the aftertax profits from the eventual exercise of those options to charity. > \*\* More correctly, he says he _has_ dontated the options to a charitable trust which has a trustee (presumably not him) who has the power to dispose of them. That would require a change in the way most employee options work (i.e. employee options are not themselves marketable), so I have to imagine that he worked that out with Halliburton the same way Rubin did with his (then-private) interest in Goldman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheney-still-has-money-ties-to-halliburton/204021.md?page=3)