# Cheney's "Executive Assassination Ring" -- Legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502 "2009-07-09T22:41:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/1 "2009-07-09T22:41:00Z")
I was reading the following at HuffPo (I know but there are other sources for this too) and my jaw hit the floor. > [@](#): > > So what are the “significant actions” that these seven lawmakers insist were kept from Congress? Another theory being bandied about concerns an “executive assassination ring” that was allegedly set up and answered to former Vice President Dick Cheney. The New Yorker’s Seymour Hersh, building off earlier reporting from the New York Times, dropped news of the possibility that such a ring existed in a March 2009 discussion sponsored by the University of Minnesota. > > “It is a special wing of our special operations community that is set up independently,” Hersh said. "They do not report to anybody, except in the Bush-Cheney days, they reported directly to the Cheney office. They did not report to the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff or to Mr. [Robert] Gates, the secretary of defense. They reported directly to him. … > > “Congress has no oversight of it,” he added. “It’s an executive assassination ring essentially, and it’s been going on and on and on. Just today in the Times there was a story that its leaders, a three star admiral named [William H.] McRaven, ordered a stop to it because there were so many collateral deaths. Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us.” > > SOURCE: [Was The CIA Hiding Cheney's "Executive Assassination Ring"? | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/09/was-the-cia-hiding-cheney_n_228864.html) Sounds like something out of a movie. If true I find it more than a little shocking. Can this be legal? Or is this another of those, “We’re the executive office and did all in the name of national security so it’s cool” things? I knew they had strayed far off the path of checks and balances in our government but this is completely off the rails. As an aside opinions on whether this is true or not? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/2 "2009-07-09T22:46:02Z")
Don’t know it the same applies to the Vice President but . . . [QUOTE=Richard Nixon] Well, when the president does it that means that it is not illegal. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/3 "2009-07-09T22:50:50Z")
Illegal under whose laws? I could see something of an argument that american laws only apply to americans and/or when on american soil, and if you don’t care about the foreign country’s laws… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/4 "2009-07-09T22:52:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Illegal under whose laws? I could see something of an argument that american laws only apply to americans and/or when on american soil, and if you don’t care about the foreign country’s laws… So I can hire someone to go murder someone and it is legal as long as the killing is done in another country? Not to mention Cheney was using US military assets (SpecOps looks like) to do his bidding. That is kosher? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/5 "2009-07-09T22:54:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Illegal under whose laws? I could see something of an argument that american laws only apply to americans and/or when on american soil, and if you don’t care about the foreign country’s laws… If I read the “and” of your “and/or” correctly, then if an American citizen commits murder, it is OK as long as the American does it in another country? Huh? Or am I misreading you here? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/6 "2009-07-09T22:58:00Z")
Surely I am not the only person who read the thread title and envisaged Cheney stalking around wearing a Borgia Pope-style hinged ring with poison in it (or better still a 007 sovereign ring with a tiny little gun inside), that he could use to assassinate people he didn’t like? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/7 "2009-07-09T23:01:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So I can hire someone to go murder someone and it is legal as long as the killing is done in another country? For all I know it is (well, probably not under the laws of the country you’re doing the killing in, but that’s a separate issue). Of course, IANAL, so maybe we have conspiracty to commit laws that would apply even if the crime itself was out of jurisdiction. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not to mention Cheney was using US military assets (SpecOps looks like) to do his bidding. That is kosher? Well, clearly _somebody_ in the government can do this; going off and killing people in other countries is what the military _does_. I wouldn’t bet a plug nickel that the way this was done would count as proper official channels, though. (Though IANAGeneral, so ymmv.) > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > If I read the “and” of your “and/or” correctly, then if an American citizen commits murder, it is OK as long as the American does it in another country? Huh? Or am I misreading you here? It ain’t gonna be okay under the other country’s laws, of course, but I honestly couldn’t tell you if that’s illegal under American laws. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/8 "2009-07-09T23:05:33Z")
Like many things, I suppose it would depend on the relationship of the two countries. If, for example, Cheney authorized the killing of a Canadian politician, because he said something nasty about Cheney’s family, it would be a bit different from Cheney authorizing the killing of a Somali warlord… ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/9 "2009-07-09T23:10:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Like many things, I suppose it would depend on the relationship of the two countries. If, for example, Cheney authorized the killing of a Canadian politician, because he said something nasty about Cheney’s family, it would be a bit different from Cheney authorizing the killing of a Somali warlord… Yeah, and I’d need a lot more proof that such a “ring” existed before I’d believe it. Cheney and Rumsfeld were supreme assholes that wouldn’t listen to their advisors, and perpetrated a lot of bullshit, but something like this needs more substantiation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/10 "2009-07-09T23:18:49Z")
Sounds (and smells) like a load of horseshit to me…but will await developments. One thing though…Chaney et al have been out of office for months now. If this is still going on (or was going on and hasn’t subsequently been prosecuted by the new sheriff in town), then…well, doesn’t that seem kind of fishy to anyone? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/11 "2009-07-09T23:30:14Z")
As I see it, there are two parts that could potentially be unlawful: the unilateral knowledge of and control over the squad, and the actions of the squad. On the latter point, no federal statute criminalizes the assassination of a foreign official outside the boundaries of the United States. While Executive Order 12333 prohibits some assassinations, Clinton modified it so that he could order basically this kind of anti-terror assassination. Plus, a more recent order from the C-in-C or his subordinate would trump the EO as a legal matter anyway (though it is possible that the modification of the order has to be made public). Some kinds of assassination are prohibited under international law, in its various forms. We would need to know more about what exactly they did, and what the justifications were, to assess the legality under international law. As to the unilateral knowledge and control, it is probably not unconstitutional. Generally speaking, the executive gets to decide what our troops do outside our borders. And, any impropriety related to Congress’ war powers would be remedied by the AUMF which was pretty much Congress giving up all their power. The only remaining argument I can think of is that it is almost certainly a violation of the federal statute requiring the briefing of key congresspeople on intelligence activities. But then, the CIA is basically admitting they violated that statute repeatedly, so the assassination-ring would add little new to that story. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/12 "2009-07-09T23:31:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As an aside opinions on whether this is true or not? These are words that jumped out at me in just two sentences: “theory” “bandied about” “allegedly” “possibility” > [@](#): > > Can this be legal? The Program - the CIA reports directly to the Executive Office of the President. This seems like a special program they would be involved in. Nothing out of the ordinary with that type of direct oversight. Also, The Joint Chiefs is not the in military chain of command. The DoD obviously is under command of the CnC. So nothing wrong with bypassing them. \*see \*\*Richard Parker \*\*post about possibly not reporting to the Senate or House of Rep Intelligence Committee. What the program does - killing people. It would depend on the person being killed. To early to call at this point. “Executive assignation ring” language makes it way to early. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/13 "2009-07-09T23:35:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So I can hire someone to go murder someone and it is legal as long as the killing is done in another country? You would be prosecuted under the laws of that other country, provided we had an extradition treaty with them. I’m not sure how this is different from the predator drone killings we routinely do in Pakistan, although I suppose Congress has some oversight over that activity. At any rate, this is (to quote the OP’s article) “Another theory being bandied about”. Doesn’t sound like there’s a lot of proof at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/14 "2009-07-09T23:43:37Z")
As to the likelihood of the story being true, I guess prudent people will wait and see. As a matter of speculation, I find it to be entirely plausible. We already know the CIA was bypassing Congress on other matters. After Guantanamo turned into a legal morass, the administration may have decided it was just easier to kill people on the “battlefield” than capture them. And I’m not sure they’re wrong. We know they snatched people up and sent them to be tortured (and not the kind of torture that NPR wrings it hands over calling torture–we’re talking sending them to Morocco). Is just killing them that great a leap? Though assassination is probably a misnomer. I would think we’d notice if a bunch of foreign officials were suddenly being mysteriously killed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/15 "2009-07-09T23:46:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As to the likelihood of the story being true, I guess prudent people will wait and see. As a matter of speculation, I find it to be entirely plausible. We already know the CIA was bypassing Congress on other matters. After Guantanamo turned into a legal morass, the administration may have decided it was just easier to kill people on the “battlefield” than capture them. And I’m not sure they’re wrong. We know they snatched people up and sent them to be tortured (and not the kind of torture that NPR wrings it hands over calling torture–we’re talking sending them to Morocco). Is just killing them that great a leap? If anything, it’s less extreme than what we’ve already done. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/16 "2009-07-09T23:52:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As to the likelihood of the story being true, I guess prudent people will wait and see. As a matter of speculation, I find it to be entirely plausible. We already know the CIA was bypassing Congress on other matters. After Guantanamo turned into a legal morass, the administration may have decided it was just easier to kill people on the “battlefield” than capture them. And I’m not sure they’re wrong. We know they snatched people up and sent them to be tortured (and not the kind of torture that NPR wrings it hands over calling torture–we’re talking sending them to Morocco). Is just killing them that great a leap? > > Though assassination is probably a misnomer. I would think we’d notice if a bunch of foreign officials were suddenly being mysteriously killed. Hasn’t the CIA _always_ bypassed Congress, though? What would make this new (if true)? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/17 "2009-07-09T23:54:37Z")
My (limited) understanding is that key congressional leaders are supposed to be briefed on any significant intelligence activity as a matter of federal statute. But I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that I’m wrong. ETA: Here’s a memo outlining the statutory requirements: merln.ndu.edu/merln/mipal/crs/NSA18Jan06.doc ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/18 "2009-07-09T23:56:35Z")
Legality aside, I’m wondering just how this could be implemented without going through some traceable channels. The personnel involved need to receive classified intel, they need weapons, equipment, transportation and money. If they’re already part of the established system (military, intelligence) they need leave from their official duties to go haring off on the VP’s special assignments. It’s the Torchwood paradox: if you’re really THAT secret, no one’s ever heard of you and you have no official authority. Anyone volunteering for this cowboy outfit would be setting themselves up to have their asses swinging in the wind, and if I were a Delta Force colonel I wouldn’t touch it with a 20-foot pole. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/19 "2009-07-10T00:02:36Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > My (limited) understanding is that key congressional leaders are supposed to be briefed on any significant intelligence activity as a matter of federal statute. But I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that I’m wrong. > > ETA: Here’s a memo outlining the statutory requirements: merln.ndu.edu/merln/mipal/crs/NSA18Jan06.doc [Statute 413](http://www2.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00000413---a000-.html). Basically you must keep the congressional intelligence committees fully and currently informed of all intelligence activities, **other than a covert action** (as defined in section 413b (e) of this title) Here’s to guessing this would qualify as a covert action. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/20 "2009-07-10T00:03:52Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Legality aside, I’m wondering just how this could be implemented without going through some traceable channels. The personnel involved need to receive classified intel, they need weapons, equipment, transportation and money. If they’re already part of the established system (military, intelligence) they need leave from their official duties to go haring off on the VP’s special assignments. > > It’s the Torchwood paradox: if you’re really THAT secret, no one’s ever heard of you and you have no official authority. Anyone volunteering for this cowboy outfit would be setting themselves up to have their asses swinging in the wind, and if I were a Delta Force colonel I wouldn’t touch it with a 20-foot pole. That . . . would be quite Bushian actually. A secret assassination force that can’t get the job done because it was constructed to be out of the loop, beyond restraint and oversight; and as a result has no connections or authority. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502.md?page=2)