# Cheney's "Executive Assassination Ring" -- Legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502 "2009-07-09T22:41:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/21 "2009-07-10T00:16:02Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > [Statute 413](http://www2.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00000413---a000-.html). Basically you must keep the congressional intelligence committees fully and currently informed of all intelligence activities, **other than a covert action** (as defined in section 413b (e) of this title) My five minutes went too fast. You still report a [covert action](http://www2.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00000413---b000-.html), just to a smaller and higher ranking circle of people. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/22 "2009-07-10T00:43:22Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > [Statute 413](http://www2.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00000413---a000-.html). Basically you must keep the congressional intelligence committees fully and currently informed of all intelligence activities, **other than a covert action** (as defined in section 413b (e) of this title) > > Here’s to guessing this would qualify as a covert action. And today Panetta admitted the CIA lies to congress.,and has for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/23 "2009-07-10T00:45:42Z")
Its Bullshit. :dubious: Not that they weren’t capable of it and claiming it was legal, it’s just that Cheney isn’t stupid enough to name it, especially such a hokey name. If there was such a “ring” it’s likely be named something like “Operation Super-Patriot”. There’s only one source for this- Hersh. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/24 "2009-07-10T00:55:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Illegal under whose laws? I could see something of an argument that american laws only apply to americans and/or when on american soil, and if you don’t care about the foreign country’s laws… The constitution says that international treaties entered into are thenceforth national law. > **[Supremacy Clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause)** > > The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution of the United States (Article VI, Clause 2) establishes that the Constitution, federal laws made pursuant to it, and treaties made under the authority of the United States, constitute the "supreme Law of the Land", and thus take priority over any conflicting state laws. It provides that state courts are bound by, and state constitutions subordinate to, the supreme law. However, federal statutes and treaties must be within the parameters of the Consti T... ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/25 "2009-07-10T00:55:15Z")
If I were doing it, I’d use foreign nationals. Set a price on a specific target and then wire money into an account when they are killed. You could use a foreign national to do the latter as well. Base everyone outside the US. I’m not sure if I care too much. If we could have done it to OBL we’d all be better off. The problem is picking the targets and knowing that they are really “bad guys”. Legalism aside, I see it as more moral than launching a wider war that will have more collateral deaths and destruction of property. Sometimes I wish we had done this against mob-leaders that we knew were guilty but couldn’t prosecute. Isn’t there a based-on-fact movie about Israel doing this to the Munich conspirators? ETA: if the reports prove to be true, the public will not give a fuck. People love this stuff. There is a reason 24 and Robert Ludlum movies are popular. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/26 "2009-07-10T00:57:42Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Isn’t there a based-on-fact movie about Israel doing this to the Munich conspirators? Yes. “Munich”. Staring Eric Bana and the guy who played Caesar in “Rome” on HBO. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/27 "2009-07-10T01:19:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > On the latter point, no federal statute criminalizes the assassination of a foreign official outside the boundaries of the United States. While Executive Order 12333 prohibits some assassinations, Clinton modified it so that he could order basically this kind of anti-terror assassination. Plus, a more recent order from the C-in-C or his subordinate would trump the EO as a legal matter anyway (though it is possible that the modification of the order has to be made public). Some kinds of assassination are prohibited under international law, in its various forms. We would need to know more about what exactly they did, and what the justifications were, to assess the legality under international law. Well, [18 U.S.C. § 112](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/112.html) would appear to do the trick. In particular, subsection (e) appears to contemplate activities conducted outside of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/28 "2009-07-10T01:56:05Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Well, [18 U.S.C. § 112](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/112.html) would appear to do the trick. In particular, subsection (e) appears to contemplate activities conducted outside of the United States. What’s the meaning of “foreign official, official guest, or internationally protected person” within 18 USC § 112? ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/29 "2009-07-10T02:09:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What’s the meaning of “foreign official, official guest, or internationally protected person” within 18 USC § 112? see [here](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001116----000-.html). It basically means any foreign (or US) public official and his/her family traveling with them. The question is what assassination means in “executive assassination ring.” If used correctly, then this statute would prohibit it. I’m thinking though it is just being used to mean to kill _anyone_ (ie, not necessarily a public official), thus this statute would not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/30 "2009-07-10T02:25:02Z")
Quoth **Richard Parker** : > [@](#): > > On the latter point, no federal statute criminalizes the assassination of a foreign official outside the boundaries of the United States. Really? There’s no federal law against murder? ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/31 "2009-07-10T03:17:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Really? There’s no federal law against murder? Generally no. Unless there’s some basis to make a murder a federal offense (killing a federal employee, interstate action of some sort, etc.), it’s a violation of local (usually state) law, and the locals are responsible for enforcement. Which is why the FBI doesn’t get involved in every murder case in the country. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/32 "2009-07-10T03:19:18Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Yeah, and I’d need a lot more proof that such a “ring” existed before I’d believe it. > > Cheney and Rumsfeld were supreme assholes that wouldn’t listen to their advisors, and perpetrated a lot of bullshit, but something like this needs more substantiation. [Hersh’s speech in March.](http://allisonkilkenny.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/executive-assassination-ring/) [Referenced NYT article.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/world/asia/10iht-10terror.20718567.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=William%20H.%20McRaven&st=cse) FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/33 "2009-07-10T03:44:23Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > “Executive assignation ring” . . . I thought that was Clinton’s gig. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/34 "2009-07-10T04:45:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Hersh’s speech in March.](http://allisonkilkenny.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/executive-assassination-ring/) > > [Referenced NYT article.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/world/asia/10iht-10terror.20718567.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=William%20H.%20McRaven&st=cse) > > FWIW. Can you quote the relevant sections? Don’t just give us two cites and say read these. What’s the core of what they are saying. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/35 "2009-07-10T06:06:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Hersh’s speech in March.](http://allisonkilkenny.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/executive-assassination-ring/) > > [Referenced NYT article.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/world/asia/10iht-10terror.20718567.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=William%20H.%20McRaven&st=cse) > > FWIW. Still just the one source. And I second **John** s request. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/36 "2009-07-10T11:42:45Z")
Guess I am just amazed that a private assassination squad is a perk of being Vice President. I thought our government was built with the notion of checks-and-balances in mind. Sure the CIA and military will go kill people. Presumably though there is some oversight somewhere in there. I am unclear as to what the VP’s assassination group could do that the a CIA group couldn’t or wouldn’t. If the CIA would not assassinate someone then presumably there is a good reason for it that the VP sought to sidestep. If this is true I am bothered by it not from the notion that our government will go kill someone but that one person is running the show. Power corrupts and this is quite a power to have. We know from Guantanamo that the government was not overly choosy about who it snatched and dumped in there. How does Cheney know if some poor slob has it coming? Would it matter (legally) if Cheney was getting rid of foreign competition to Halliburton so they could get a juicy contract? Put another way is absolutely anyone on a list to be killed by the VP legally ok (inasmuch as US law would not bust him for it)? Isn’t the point of oversight to potentially prevent such an abuse? Also note that even if the targets were legitimate bad guys that none of us will miss the program was allegedly shut down due to collateral damage so, presumably, a fair number of actually innocent people got whacked. This is all cool by everyone if it is true? ETA: As to the truth of the allegations we do not know yet but apparently it is a matter of record that Panetta has informed the Intelligence Committee of some program that apparently shocked Democrats and Republicans alike. We do not know what that is yet but it seems apparent something is afoot that both Reps and Dems alike are uncomfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/37 "2009-07-10T13:45:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How does Cheney know if some poor slob has it coming? What did Cheney ever do or say that conveyed the impression he’d give a flying feck about offing an innocent person? He had no trouble authorising the bombing of Baghdad restaurants in the run up to the war on the off-chance Saddam might be eating there. The man is a sociopathic war-criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/38 "2009-07-10T13:53:37Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > What did Cheney ever do or say that conveyed the impression he’d give a flying feck about offing an innocent person? He had no trouble authorising the bombing of Baghdad restaurants in the run up to the war on the off-chance Saddam might be eating there. > > The man is a sociopathic war-criminal. Nothing I am aware of. That just highlights the point that these things are done with at least some oversight. That is not to say every decision is second guessed but rather that there is some accountability built in somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/39 "2009-07-10T14:03:46Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Well, [18 U.S.C. § 112](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/112.html) would appear to do the trick. In particular, subsection (e) appears to contemplate activities conducted outside of the United States. I’m not so sure. The definitions of the relevant potential victims seem not to apply to a person in his own country (e.g. "…while in the United States, " “…is in a country other than his own,” or “…is in a place that is entitled pursuant to international law to special protection against attack [RP: which means the UN or an embassy, I believe].” Is there any case law on this? According to the little I’ve read (academic analysis), this statute would not prevent the full repeal of EO12333. Usually if an EO is compelled by statute, there has to be legislation to repeal it. So that makes me think that it doesn’t really prevent foreign assassination. Also, obviously, it does not seem to apply to leaders of terrorist groups. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/40 "2009-07-10T16:31:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Still just the one source. > > And I second **John** s request. Well, [here’s a Wiki article on the Joint Special Operations Command,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Special_Operations_Command) which apparently is very secretive. It is part of the [U.S. Special Operations Command.](http://www.socom.mil/) > [@](#): > > The JSOC is the “joint headquarters designed to study special operations requirements and techniques; ensure interoperability and equipment standardization; plan and conduct joint special operations exercises and training; and develop joint special operations tactics”[2]. For this task, the Joint Communications Unit (JCU) is tasked to ensure compatibility of communications systems and standard operating procedures of the different special operations units. > > The Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) also commands and controls the Special Mission Units (SMU) of United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM). These units perform highly classified activities.[3][4][5] So far, only three SMUs have been publicly disclosed: The Army’s 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta (Delta Force), the Navy’s SEAL Team 6 or Naval Special Warfare Development Group (DEVGRU), and the Air Force’s 24th Special Tactics Squadron. Intelligence Support Activity (ISA) which often operates under various cover names such as Royal Cape, Granite Rock and Powder Keg were some, Centra Spike and Torn Victor. However, it most recent known cover names was Gray Fox. The army once maintained the Activity, but after September 11 attacks the Pentagon shifted direct control to Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) at Fort Bragg, NC.[6] If needed, Army Rangers and Night Stalkers can be transferred under the JSOC command. JSOC’s primary mission is believed to be identifying and destroying terrorists and terror cells worldwide.[7] > > USSOCOM/JSOC cannot conduct covert action operations, as the CIA is the only organization that has the authority to conduct these actions.[8] However, USSOCOM has an excellent relationship with the CIA’s elite Special Activities Division and the two forces often operate together with exceptional results.[9][10] The CIA’s Special Activities Division’s Special Operations Group often selects their recruits from JSOC[11] This article does **not** say that the JSOC reports directly to the POTUS or VPOTUS outside the normal DOD chain of command – nor that it doesn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502.md?page=3)