# Cheney's "Executive Assassination Ring" -- Legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502 "2009-07-09T22:41:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/41 "2009-07-10T16:34:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you quote the relevant sections? Don’t just give us two cites and say read these. What’s the core of what they are saying. From the NYT article: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — The commander of a secretive branch of America’s Special Operations forces last month ordered a halt to most commando missions in Afghanistan, reflecting a growing concern that civilian deaths caused by American firepower are jeopardizing broader goals there. > > The halt, which lasted about two weeks, came after a series of nighttime raids by Special Operations troops in recent months killed women and children, and after months of mounting outrage in Afghanistan about civilians killed in air and ground strikes. The order covered all commando missions except those against the highest-ranking leaders of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, military officials said. > > \ > > According to senior military officials, the stand-down was ordered by Vice Admiral William H. McRaven, the head of the military’s Joint Special Operations Command, which oversees the secret commando units. Of which Hersh said: > [@](#): > > “Right now, today, there was a story in the New York Times that if you read it carefully mentioned something known as the Joint Special Operations Command — JSOC it’s called. It is a special wing of our special operations community that is set up independently. They do not report to anybody, except in the Bush-Cheney days, they reported directly to the Cheney office. They did not report to the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff or to Mr. [Robert] Gates, the secretary of defense. They reported directly to him. … > > “Congress has no oversight of it. It’s an executive assassination ring essentially, and it’s been going on and on and on. Just today in the Times there was a story that its leaders, a three star admiral named [William H.] McRaven, ordered a stop to it because there were so many collateral deaths. > > “Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/42 "2009-07-10T16:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] This article does not say that the JSOC reports directly to the POTUS or VPOTUS outside the normal DOD chain of command – nor that it doesn’t. [/QUOTE] Skimming the article, it also doesn’t say that there is no Congressional oversight. -XT ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/43 "2009-07-10T16:46:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From the NYT article: > > Of which Hersh said: Dude if you can’t see the difference between a commando team tasked to kill leaders of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and a “executive assassination ring”, then it’s hopeless. :rolleyes: It’s perfectly legal under US law for us to kill dudes we are at war with, and we are at war with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. In fact the USA even has UN support for this (to a certain extent). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/44 "2009-07-10T16:48:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Dude if you can’t see the difference between a commando team tasked to kill leaders of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and a “executive assassination ring”, then it’s hopeless. :rolleyes: > > It’s perfectly legal under US law for us to kill dudes we are at war with, and we are at war with the Taliban and Al Qaeda. In fact the USA even has UN support for this (to a certain extent). I understand that fine. My question is why would such a group be under the direction of the Vice President? Are they unable to be directed by the CIA or military? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/45 "2009-07-10T16:58:12Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] My question is why would such a group be under the direction of the Vice President? Are they unable to be directed by the CIA or military? [/QUOTE] Well, as far as I can tell this is all pure speculation at this point. However, plausibly it might have been under the VP’s office because that’s the way Cheney wanted it. He was a major player in the previous administration, having far more power and pull than any other VP I can think of off the top of my head. He also had a large power base before becoming VP. So, it might have been done that way simply because Bush and Cheney wanted it set up that way. Or, it could all be a complete (or partial) load of horseshit, the same kind of vewy scawy wolf crying we’ve been hearing for the past 8 years. That’s why my own BS detector goes off at even a whiff of this type of thing these days…after years of this shit it’s hard to sort out the paranoia from the reality at this point, and hard to determine when there really IS a wolf at the door, or just another lefty jumping at shadows. That’s why I generally take a wait and see approach on this kind of thing…because, while lefties can be complete moon bats, nothing would actually surprise me that Cheney et al would or could have done. -XT ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/46 "2009-07-10T16:58:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I understand that fine. > > My question is why would such a group be under the direction of the Vice President? Are they unable to be directed by the CIA or military? It comes under the Executive Branch, and everyone knew that GWB couldn’t run something like that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/47 "2009-07-10T17:04:19Z")
As Vice President, Cheney was part of the \*legislative \*branch. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/48 "2009-07-10T17:05:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Or, it could all be a complete (or partial) load of horseshit, the same kind of vewy scawy wolf crying we’ve been hearing for the past 8 years. That’s why my own BS detector goes off at even a whiff of this type of thing these days…after years of this shit it’s hard to sort out the paranoia from the reality at this point, and hard to determine when there really IS a wolf at the door, or just another lefty jumping at shadows. > > -XT It well may be a load of horseshit, but I’d like to disagree with your “crying wolf” premise. There may have been a few paranoid jumping lefties, but what strikes me about the past 8 years was how many of the crazy statements about the Bush/Cheney administration turned out to be TRUE! It’s not crying wolf when there actually is one outside the door. One example of many - When I first heard rumours that the US had been setting up covert secret prisons in third countries to send suspects to… I scoffed. I laughed. I said “no way!” [Whoops - it was true!](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644_pf.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/49 "2009-07-10T17:13:37Z")
I can just see Q giving Cheney a weapons lecture… “Now, pay attention, double-O shit-for-brains, this is important! Here you have a standard American shotgun, loaded with birdshot. It is ineffective at short range, and quite useless beyond that, though it may be adequate for an elderly Texas lawyer at about three yards. Still carrying that silly little Beretta, are you?..” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/50 "2009-07-10T17:33:28Z")
[QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] It well may be a load of horseshit, but I’d like to disagree with your “crying wolf” premise. There may have been a few paranoid jumping lefties, but what strikes me about the past 8 years was how many of the crazy statements about the Bush/Cheney administration turned out to be TRUE! It’s not crying wolf when there actually is one outside the door. [/QUOTE] Sure, many of them turned out to be true. Usually not the one’s that originally came out there, but one’s that sort of exploded on the scene unexpectedly. It’s hard to know if the wolf is outside the door when you have been told 20 other times that wolves were there. YMMV, but my rough guess is there were something like 20 loony lefty hand wringers for every actual Bush et al evil deed. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/51 "2009-07-10T17:37:13Z")
There are 3 million loony lefty hand wringers? Wow! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/52 "2009-07-10T17:45:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sure, many of them turned out to be true. Usually not the one’s that originally came out there, but one’s that sort of exploded on the scene unexpectedly. It’s hard to know if the wolf is outside the door when you have been told 20 other times that wolves were there. YMMV, but my rough guess is there were something like 20 loony lefty hand wringers for every actual Bush et al evil deed. > > -XT My mileage absolutely does vary, and I am in complete and total disagreement with your 20:1 ratio. The Bush/Cheney administration was a watershed for me, in that assertions that I normally would have written off a crazy started to be confirmed in alarming numbers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/53 "2009-07-10T17:52:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Hersh’s speech in March.](http://allisonkilkenny.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/executive-assassination-ring/) > > [Referenced NYT article.](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/world/asia/10iht-10terror.20718567.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=William%20H.%20McRaven&st=cse) > > FWIW. It’s worth zero in terms of shedding more light on this other than what was in the OP. The NYT article has nothing to do with this subject. For the time being, until we get more sources, I’m not convinced any more than I was when he kept predicting an invasion of Iran. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/54 "2009-07-10T17:53:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > YMMV, but my rough guess is there were something like 20 loony lefty hand wringers for every actual Bush et al evil deed. Okay, I’ll bite. What are a few of your favorite examples of “loony left” ideas about Bush that did not turn out to be true? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/55 "2009-07-10T18:31:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite. What are a few of your favorite examples of “loony left” ideas about Bush that did not turn out to be true? Well, he didn’t cancel the 2008 election. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/56 "2009-07-10T18:49:10Z")
I heard a whole lot more from the “loony right” about how Clinton was going to cancel the 2000 election than about Bush and 2008. But I would never say there’s no such thing as a loony leftist. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/57 "2009-07-10T19:13:18Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Okay, I’ll bite. What are a few of your favorite examples of “loony left” ideas about Bush that did not turn out to be true? [/QUOTE] Hm…my favorites? Well, BG brought up the ‘cancel elections’ one. Another was that he was going to overturn RvW and outlaw abortion. Another favorite was the perennial favorite that we were just on the verge of invading \ (ETA: obviously this was after we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq). There were loony lefty threads on some new shocking thing he was just about to do nearly weekly on this board. It made it difficult to decide what to take serious, and it totally distracted when he ACTUALLY did something horrendous (which, sadly, happened quite a lot). But when you are hearing people crying wolf constantly it’s hard to know when you are about to actually get bit on the ass… -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/58 "2009-07-10T19:20:40Z")
Good point! Just because he has done crazy and destructive things, continues to do crazy and destructive things, that doesn’t mean we can assume he’s \*just about \*to do something crazy and destructive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/59 "2009-07-10T19:26:56Z")
Although I don’t think there’s enough evidence to know if this is true or not, it would not surprise me in the least if it turned out to be true (more or less). And I’m not sure it would be all that different from what we’ve done under other administrations. How much does Congress get to know about the detailed dirty work done by various covert ops? Not saying it should be that way, but I always figured it was. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502/60 "2009-07-10T19:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Good point! Just because he has done crazy and destructive things, continues to do crazy and destructive things, that doesn’t mean we can assume he’s just about to do something crazy and destructive. [/QUOTE] 😛 I’m glad we are in agreement then… -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cheneys-executive-assassination-ring-legal/502502.md?page=4)