# Chesebro,Powell and Others in Trump's Orbit **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [October 22, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920 "2023-10-22T13:52:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/61 "2023-10-23T14:29:06Z")
It depends on the interaction between the two, at the time of the alleged advice. Whether a lawyer-client relationship was created would depend on the particular facts, and is determined by applying the law governing lawyer duties to the facts of the particular case. If one of the parties denies that there was a lawyer-client relationship, and something turns on the issue in litigation, then the court would have to make a determination. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/62 "2023-10-23T14:33:24Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/63 "2023-10-23T14:36:44Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If one of the parties denies that there was a lawyer-client relationship, and something turns on the issue into litigation, then the court would have to make a determination. So might D. Trump denying that she was his lawyer be a way to hold up and disrupt the courts even further by forcing them to make this determination before her testimony or information could be used in his trial (s)? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/64 "2023-10-23T14:37:14Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I’m not intimately familiar with the case, but I don’t see that it matters. I think where it could come into play is the “advice of counsel” defence. But if the Donald is now saying that they weren’t his lawyers, hard to simultaneously say that he relied on their legal advice. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/65 "2023-10-23T14:38:05Z")
I don’t know how it would work procedurally, but trial judges are generally pretty good at moving things along. Personally, I think this is just Trump’s standard reaction: attack anyone who says bad things about him, and deny that he had any dealings with them. That may work when you’re stiffing a contractor and there’s not much by way of a paper trail. Not the same when you’re the President of the United States, and everything you do is watched by the media and other politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/66 "2023-10-23T14:45:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I think where it could come into play is the “advice of counsel” defence. But if the Donald is now saying that they weren’t his lawyers, hard to simultaneously say that he relied on their legal advice. People keep throwing about “advice of counsel defense” [or defence for you northerners] but I’m not sure it would even apply to the charges here. I don’t think it’s a formal affirmative defense, but perhaps is relevant along the lines of “I didn’t have any intent to commit a crime, and relied on the fact these lawyers assured me it was perfectly legal.” For such an argument, I don’t think the “lawyers” have to be _his_ lawyers. It would work just as well if he read their opinions in the Wall Street Journal. Of course, intending to _commit a crime_ is not the issue. Intent to do the acts is what the Government must prove. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/67 "2023-10-23T14:49:46Z")
Yes, I have no idea how strong that defence might be, or the parameters. However, it is being tossed around in the op-eds, so there may be some relevance there. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/68 "2023-10-23T14:59:10Z")
I’ve linked to this article before, but I think it has a home here. A pretty quick read that gives some texture to the Powell/Fox News/Dominion lawsuit stories _and_ helps us understand a primary source for Powell’s “rigged election machines” story: > **[The 'wackadoodle' foundation of Fox News' election-fraud claims](https://www.npr.org/2023/02/20/1158223099/fox-news-dominion-wackadoodle-election-fraud-claim)** > > A woman who put forth election-fraud claims that even she described as "pretty wackadoodle" was a source for baseless claims aired by Fox News in 2020. The network is now being sued for defamation. ---
**Author:** ![Kelby2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ebca7d/32.png) [@Kelby2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby2)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/69 "2023-10-23T17:15:03Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > > [@enipla](#): > > > > Or they thought that this was gonna be big payout. They would be some sort of hero, or very rich. > > Or, in a position of power in Trump’s administration when they helped him retain (or return to) power. This is my take, seduced by the trappings of Presidential power. There were plenty of officials in Trump’s administration that said, “Uh, let me off here…” when the crazy election fraud talk began. Not that there wasn’t plenty of other crazy talk in the Trump administration, but probably not the kind that could get you mired in legal trouble if you went along with it. Cassidy Hutchinson in her book provides an interesting picture of Mark Meadows, who seems to psychologically disintegrate after the election, due to his willingness to follow Trump off the cliff out of misguided loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/70 "2023-10-23T18:00:08Z")
> [@Kelby2](#): > > due to his willingness to follow Trump off the cliff out of misguided loyalty. This is one of reasons I started this thread. Loyalty, to Trump? Why? How misguided are these people? We are going to need many, many people to study these people. And as others have said it like being in an abusive relationship I guess. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/71 "2023-10-23T18:19:09Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Loyalty, to Trump? Why? How misguided are these people? IMHO, it’s not just how misguided these people are, but how many millions of people are that misguided. That to me is frightening - even to the extent that Cassidy Hutchinson is misguided to the extent that she was or still is. ---
**Author:** ![Kelby2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ebca7d/32.png) [@Kelby2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby2)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/72 "2023-10-23T19:02:26Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Thought about putting this in the Georgia indictment thread, but it might sort of derail it. > > And these two fools probably deserve their own thread anyway. Haven’t seen one. > > A question - > Has anyone asked/discovered WHY these two clowns committed multiple crimes in an attempt to put Trump back in office? > > - I don’t think they are typical MAGA cultists. But could be wrong there. > - If Trump promised something in return, well, they are fools. But they are fools anyway. > - Did they just want to be part of Trumps administration if they could pull it off? > - Are they just really, really stupid? > - Perhaps a complete blind spot when it comes to right and wrong? But they’re attourneys for crying out loud. > - Blackmail perhaps? > > There were plenty of people on Jan 6 that should have known better. LEO’s military and such. But I feel like these two, and the other 17 would have a little bit better grasp on the law, and aren’t wild eyed cultist. > > I know that the public has a short memory, but it stuns me that these professional, highly educated people would throw their careers and any respect away for a mad man. Many minimized or denied the pathology that was the Trump administration, look at the feckless Republicans after the two impeachments. Others laughably thought he would “pivot” at some point after he’d been reprimanded. All were complicit to one degree or another. ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/73 "2023-10-24T14:25:14Z")
It seems a new name needs to be added to the title of this thread: > **[Trump 2020 lawyer Jenna Ellis pleads guilty in Georgia election case, the...](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/24/trump-2020-lawyer-jenna-ellis-pleads-guilty-in-georgia-election-case-the-latest-to-flip.html)** > > Ellis is the latest co-defendant of former President Donald Trump to take a deal, joining Sidney Powell and Kenneth Chesebro. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/74 "2023-10-24T14:35:03Z")
> [@](#): > > “As an attorney who is also a Christian, I take my responsibilities as a lawyer very seriously and I endeavor to be a person of sound moral and ethical character in all of my dealings,” Ellis said. > > “I believed that challenging the results on behalf of President Trump should be pursued in a just and legal way,” she said, but “I failed to do my due diligence.” > > Instead, she said she relied on information that was provided to her by other lawyers “with many more years of experience.” > > “If I knew then what I know now, I would have declined to represent Donald Trump in these post-election challenges,” she said. > > “I look back on this whole experience with deep remorse.” Another Trump lawyer pleading incompetence, I see. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/75 "2023-10-24T14:48:06Z")
And one waving the cross of Jeebus in front of her as a magic amulet to ward off ~~vampires~~ judges. Sometimes I wish jeebus was real so folks pulling that stunt could be vaporized by indoor lightning as soon as the words “I’m a christian” come out of their ~~piehole~~ liehole. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/76 "2023-10-24T14:58:17Z")
I just wish the “Christian” pleading would get her extra punishment, as in “As a Christian, you knew perfectly well that this act you were engaged in was immoral,” and the “Lawyer” pleading got her extra punishment, as in “As a lawyer, you knew perfectly well that this act you were engaged in was illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/77 "2023-10-24T15:12:42Z")
Seems like we should include Ellis in this conversation too. Another attorney who should have Known Better. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/78 "2023-10-24T15:35:51Z")
Always the victims. It’s not her fault she listened to other people and did what they told her of her own free will. It’s not her fault she didn’t do a single thing to make sure she wasn’t breaking the law. It’s those other people. It’s always those other people ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/79 "2023-10-24T15:41:10Z")
Even though she herself was one of the lawyers concocting spurious legal rationales to justify not counting electors from states that voted for her boss’s opponent. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920/80 "2023-10-24T15:43:49Z")
“If all of your friends conspired to overturn the election, would you?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chesebro-powell-and-others-in-trumps-orbit/991920.md?page=5)