# Chess: glee v Mosier comments **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 6, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264 "2011-12-06T16:07:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/1 "2011-12-06T16:07:03Z")
I’ve set this thread up so spectators can make comments or ask questions without interrupting the flow of the game thread here: > **[Chess: glee v Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=633743)** > > This is a training game (I’m a retired professional chess coach) and hopefully will interest spectators as well. Mosier can: take a move back (if he happens to blunder horribly, I’ll point that out!) ask my advice on his next move ask questions... To start with here’s a reply to Amarone’s post in the game thread: > [@Amarone](#): > > As a minor hijack, all these various openings and defences makes me wonder whether the analysis available with modern computing power has been able to prove any longstanding openings/defenses as being suboptimal? > > I play bridge and the ability to use computers to analyze thousands of deals is now affecting thinking in certain areas of bidding and play. Certainly computers are now absolutely essential in chess for professional players. They can store millions of previous games, neatly categorised by player / opening / result etc. They have established ending theory using ‘tablebases’ (databases which contain every possible position and thus ‘play’ perfect chess.) So far I think they have analysed all endgames with 7 or less pieces. I think the main change in openings has been that more ‘tactical’ lines can be played, because the computer says they’re OK. I don’t think any main opening lines have been rejected because of computers. Remember that players have been analysing openings for over 100 years (and publishing their results), so it’s hard to find anything too revolutionary. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/2 "2011-12-06T17:50:57Z")
I know a tiny bit about chess, but haven’t played in a long while. But all of the exchanges about quiet games or such-and-such gambit and whoziwhat’s defense make me grin. The remind me of nothing so much as the duel between Inigo Montoya and The Man in Black in The Princess Bride. And it’s outstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/3 "2011-12-06T19:20:40Z")
How many moves does it usually take for various level players to no longer be using pre-memorized openings? I imagine it depends somewhat on what opening they’re playing, but just generally? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/4 "2011-12-06T20:14:03Z")
> [@glee](#): > > They have established ending theory using ‘tablebases’ (databases which contain every possible position and thus ‘play’ perfect chess.) So far I think they have analysed all endgames with 7 or less pieces. Six-piece tablebases are over a terabyte; I wasn’t able to find a reference that says seven-piece has been completely enumerated. If the size progression follows the same pattern, it would be nearly a hundred terabytes. 20 years ago, when a one GIGAbyte drive cost over a thousand bucks, that would have been ridiculous to contemplate. Today, or at least before the Thailand flooding, drives were down to about $30/TERAbyte, so it would be easy for Google or the like to host a 100 TB tablebase. But even with quantum computing, it looks like it may be a while before we get a 64-piece tablebase that solves chess completely. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/5 "2011-12-06T20:32:44Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > I know a tiny bit about chess, but haven’t played in a long while. But all of the exchanges about quiet games or such-and-such gambit and whoziwhat’s defense make me grin. The remind me of nothing so much as the duel between Inigo Montoya and The Man in Black in The Princess Bride. And it’s outstanding. It’s actually just Mornington Crescent. Once you get good enough to read the secret codes in chess books, you realize there’s nothing encoded in them, and it’s all so the cognoscenti can exchange mysterious remarks over the heads of the uninitiated. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/6 "2011-12-06T22:05:15Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > It’s actually just Mornington Crescent. Once you get good enough to read the secret codes in chess books, you realize there’s nothing encoded in them, and it’s all so the cognoscenti can exchange mysterious remarks over the heads of the uninitiated. 😃 Yeah, I’m sure they did away with the notation that used understandable terms like P-K4 because it was too easy for the uninitiated to follow. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/7 "2011-12-06T22:18:04Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > How many moves does it usually take for various level players to no longer be using pre-memorized openings? I imagine it depends somewhat on what opening they’re playing, but just generally? There are quite a lot of different ‘levels’ in chess! I’ve seen games between world-class players that followed previous analysis up to move 30 (that doesn’t happen too often, but it shows what professional players with computer databases can do.) I’ve got some lines analysed up to move 14 - but they don’t come up that much. Watching club players, I guess they have 4-8 moves ready (but of course quiet openings are easier to prepare.) In any case, ‘pre-memorized openings’ are **no use at all**. If you don’t understand the opening, then as soon as your opponent plays a new move, you’re in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/8 "2011-12-06T22:20:19Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Six-piece tablebases are over a terabyte; I wasn’t able to find a reference that says seven-piece has been completely enumerated. If the size progression follows the same pattern, it would be nearly a hundred terabytes. > > 20 years ago, when a one GIGAbyte drive cost over a thousand bucks, that would have been ridiculous to contemplate. Today, or at least before the Thailand flooding, drives were down to about $30/TERAbyte, so it would be easy for Google or the like to host a 100 TB tablebase. > > But even with quantum computing, it looks like it may be a while before we get a 64-piece tablebase that solves chess completely. Yes, I may have been optimistic in suggesting that 7 men endings has been completed! :o Here is the full 6 man tablebase: > **[Knowledge4IT - Entwurf, Implementierung, Weiterbildung.](http://www.k4it.de/index.php?topic=egtb&lang=en)** > > Knowledge4IT - Entwurf und Implementierung von Softwarelösungen. Schulungen, Seminare und Workshops. Wissenschaftliche Spiele-Ecke. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/9 "2011-12-06T22:22:38Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Yeah, I’m sure they did away with the notation that used understandable terms like P-K4 because it was too easy for the uninitiated to follow. I used to use the English notation (P-K4 etc), but to be fair it was confusing that each square had a different name depending on what colour you played. 😕 Algebraic (e.g. e4) is easier to learn and is now accepted world-wide. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/10 "2011-12-06T22:29:49Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I used to use the English notation (P-K4 etc), but to be fair it was confusing that each square had a different name depending on what colour you played. 😕 > Algebraic (e.g. e4) is easier to learn and is now accepted world-wide. I just looked up chess notation and see that there is something called ICCF which gives you notations like 5254 5755. I hope that never takes over. When I was a kid I delivered newspapers and was always keen to follow the latest Fischer-Spassky match in some customer’s Times or Telegraph. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/11 "2011-12-06T22:39:50Z")
> [@Chess: glee v Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier/605116/1): > > I’ve got White (I’m going to play Candyman 74 as Black in another thread as well) and will move next post. WTH? Glee, you’re back? I must’ve missed it. Anyways, you better not be playing them against each other. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/12 "2011-12-06T23:28:12Z")
Endgames are straightforward for a computer to analyze, because you’re working to a well-defined endpoint. If you checkmate the other guy, well, that was a good line. If the other guy checkmates you, that was a bad one. If it’s a stalemate or both sides end up with insufficient power, that’s a good line for the weaker side and a bad line for the stronger side. If you get to a position that’s already in your table, you don’t need to look any further; just see where that one ended up. Openings are trickier, because you don’t end up with a definite end of the game; you end up with a position, which you then have to evaluate, and evaluation of a position that’s not within sight of a mate is only an approximation (if we could do it exactly, computers would be unbeatable). So maybe the computer has lost every game it’s tried starting with a particular opening, but maybe there’s just some really good moves later on that it hasn’t tried that would make that opening amazing. It’s hard to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/13 "2011-12-07T02:03:58Z")
Ugh, I hate liver. So is there another good (bloodless) defense to the position at 3. Bc4 besides pulling the bishop out (Hungarian)? What else might White do after 3. … Bc5? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/14 "2011-12-07T11:39:44Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > I just looked up chess notation and see that there is something called ICCF which gives you notations like 5254 5755. I hope that never takes over. > > When I was a kid I delivered newspapers and was always keen to follow the latest Fischer-Spassky match in some customer’s Times or Telegraph. Well that International Correspondence Chess notation is just using grid refences, so 1. 5254 5755 just means 1. e2-e4 e7-e5. I suppose playing against someone who might not speak your language (or even use your alphabet) means that relying on numbers only makes sense. I too followed Fischer-Spassky. Nowadays you have live coverage with commentary! 🆒 **I absolutely recommend the London Classic** , which runs until Dec 12. The World’s best players take on the best English chaps - with very exciting chess already (see Anand - Nakamura in particular :D) See the games here: [http://live.londonchessclassic.com/live.classic.htm](http://live.londonchessclassic.com/live.classic.htm) and the commentary here: [http://www.livestream.com/LondonChessClassic](http://www.livestream.com/LondonChessClassic) N.B. Today is a rest day, but seriously **this is the best presented top-quality chess you can get.** ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/15 "2011-12-07T11:52:43Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > WTH? Glee, you’re back? I must’ve missed it. Anyways, you better not be playing them against each other. 😛 Aha, I’m not Derren Brown! 😃 As it happens, I did have the pleasure of taking part in Derren’s amazing chess illusion (you’ll probably be able to work out which player I was 😉 ): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/evZmpsl3jI0/hqdefault.jpg "Derren Brown beats 9 chess players simultaneously.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/XaODx-alm4k/hqdefault.jpg "Derron Brown -- "Trick of the Mind" Chess") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaODx-alm4k) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/TWM4_OTQg0w/hqdefault.jpg "Trick of the Mind Series 1 - Episode 1, Chess") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWM4_OTQg0w) (There may be problems viewing it for copyright reasons - you’re welcome to search for Derren Brown’s ‘Mind Control’, series 2 episode 1. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/16 "2011-12-07T11:59:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Endgames are straightforward for a computer to analyze, because you’re working to a well-defined endpoint. If you checkmate the other guy, well, that was a good line. If the other guy checkmates you, that was a bad one. If it’s a stalemate or both sides end up with insufficient power, that’s a good line for the weaker side and a bad line for the stronger side. If you get to a position that’s already in your table, you don’t need to look any further; just see where that one ended up. > > Openings are trickier, because you don’t end up with a definite end of the game; you end up with a position, which you then have to evaluate, and evaluation of a position that’s not within sight of a mate is only an approximation (if we could do it exactly, computers would be unbeatable). So maybe the computer has lost every game it’s tried starting with a particular opening, but maybe there’s just some really good moves later on that it hasn’t tried that would make that opening amazing. It’s hard to be sure. Tablebases are constructed by first generating every possible legal position with that number of pieces. Then you find all the positions that are checkmate; then all the positions one move from checkmate; all the positions two moves from checkmate … and so on. Then you create the tablebase form that information, which (because you have literally examined every position) plays perfectly. You show it a position and it declares ‘mate in 15’. :smack: It’s interesting that there’s no calculation involved, just storage (as **brocks** pointed out earlier.) As **Chronos** says, it is indeed currently impossible to be so sure about openings - but I’m certain if a particular line leads to many quick losses that it won’t be worth playing! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/17 "2011-12-07T12:06:42Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > Ugh, I hate liver. > > So is there another good (bloodless) defense to the position at 3. Bc4 besides pulling the bishop out (Hungarian)? What else might White do after 3. … Bc5? Your reference is to 4. Ng5 being known as ‘the Fried Liver’. White doesn’t have to play the Evans Gambit after 3. … Bc5 - 4. c3, 4. d3 and 4. OO are all fine. The best way to avoid complications after 3. Bc4 is the Hungarian (3. … Be7), but even then you can get a line like: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Be7 4. d4 exd4 5. c3 dxc3 6. Qd5 Nh6 7. Bxh6 OO! 8. Bc1 Nb4 9. Qd1 c2 10. Qe2 cxb1=Q 🆒 11. Rxb1 where Black is winning, but had to find several precise moves to survive. I love chess! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/18 "2011-12-07T16:00:02Z")
> [@glee](#): > > **I absolutely recommend the London Classic** , which runs until Dec 12. I’m interested in following the London Classic and have a couple of questions if you don’t mind…looking at the current results: Standings after round 4 No Name Win Draw Loss Score / games Tie break Rating TPR 1 McShane Luke J 2 2 0 8.0 / 4 2 black wins 2671 2942 2 Carlsen Magnus 2 2 0 8.0 / 4 2 white wins 2826 2909 3 Nakamura Hikaru 2 1 1 7.0 / 4 2758 2905 4 Kramnik Vladimir 1 2 0 5.0 / 3 2800 2886 5 Aronian Levon 1 1 1 4.0 / 3 2802 2709 6 Short Nigel D 1 0 2 3.0 / 3 2698 2654 7 Anand Viswanathan 0 2 1 2.0 / 3 2811 2583 8 Howell David W L 0 2 2 2.0 / 4 2633 2568 Adams Michael 0 2 2 2.0 / 4 2734 2510 (That didn’t line up like I thought it might…the standings can be found [here](http://www.londonchessclassic.com/classic.standings.htm)). It looks like 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw…is this typical (I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that a win was usually 1 point and a draw 0.5?) The time controls is 40/2, 20/1, g/15’+30" - does this mean 2 hours for the first 40 moves, 1 hour for the next 20, then 15 minutes to finish the game with 30 seconds added per move? Anything else to know? ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/19 "2011-12-07T16:43:45Z")
One more thing, I noticed in the rules listed on the website the players cannot agree to a draw directly without a judgement by a tournament official - who will only grant a draw if the 50-move rule, the 3-fold repetition rule, or a “completely drawn position” which “will only appear in the far advanced endgame” applies. In a typical tournament play can players not agree to a draw whenever they like? Is the above rule (and maybe the win counting for 3x the value of a draw) to encourage more aggressive/interesting play? ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264/20 "2011-12-07T16:53:50Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Six-piece tablebases are over a terabyte; I wasn’t able to find a reference that says seven-piece has been completely enumerated. If the size progression follows the same pattern, it would be nearly a hundred terabytes. They haven’t. Kryukov is setting up a project to help with the development of such. [7-man EGTB Bounty Reborn - Summary - CCRL Discussion Board](http://kirill-kryukov.com/chess/discussion-board/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5815) EGTBs are cool. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-glee-v-mosier-comments/605264.md?page=2)