# Chess question: Why not get a new Queen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 7, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440 "2005-12-07T01:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/21 "2005-12-10T00:18:12Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > In that link, they show a diagram where promoting to queen results in a draw, but promoting to rook lets you win. Can you explain? Given that queens can do everything rooks can do, how is this the case? Look at the diagonals. The king can’t move onto the diagonals making the promotion to queen result in a stalemate. A rook means that the king can move onto those diagonals and will have to move. Smart play on white’s part will eventually result in mate, though I don’t know if you can do it with just the rook, king, and pawn or have to promote that other pawn. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/22 "2005-12-10T00:18:37Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > … they show a diagram where promoting to queen results in a draw, but promoting to rook lets you win. Can you explain? Promoting to a queen results in no legal moves for black - so, despite white’s big advantage in material, the game ends immediately as a draw. Promoting to a rook gives white less material advantage, but still plenty to force a win. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/23 "2005-12-10T00:19:59Z")
The Pawn promotion rule isn’t the only rule in Chess that’s misunderstood or just not widely known among casual players. Try making an _en passant_ capture without discussing the rules of Chess prior to the game. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/24 "2005-12-10T00:26:06Z")
OK, thanks, folks. I knew I was missing something. I needed to look at it from Black’s perspective, not White’s. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/25 "2005-12-10T00:46:29Z")
[This website](http://www.chesskit.com/training/existing/knights/underpromotion/underpromo.php) documents (and has a nice feature letting you step through the moves) several tournament games in which a knight promotion proved to be the better choice. It’s rare, but it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/26 "2005-12-10T01:16:34Z")
I’ve not played chess for a few years, but there’s another situation called [zugzwang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang) where you have no good moves, and I suppose it’s possible that choosing the wrong piece to promote to could result in zugzwang a move or two down the line. I’ve never seen that though. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/27 "2005-12-10T01:47:21Z")
I thought, and I may have misunderstood the term, zugzwang was where the situation would be absolutely in your favor if it were the other person’s move. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/28 "2005-12-10T19:14:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I thought, and I may have misunderstood the term, zugzwang was where the situation would be absolutely in your favor if it were the other person’s move. That is mutual zugzwang. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/29 "2005-12-10T20:58:42Z")
There’s also a famous opening line in the Albin Counter Gambit which involves promoting to a knight: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. e3 Bb4+ 5. Bd2 dxe3 6. Bxb4 exf2+ 7. Ke2 fxg1=N+ The knight promotion is much superior to promoting to queen because it’s check; playing fxg1=Q instead would allow White to play Qxd8+ and then Rxg1. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/30 "2005-12-10T21:53:43Z")
Thanks, flight. I just checked the dictionary. It’s irrelevant if the situation would be in favor if it were the other player’s move. Zugzwang just means the situation forces the player to make an undesirable or disadvantageous move. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/31 "2005-12-10T22:58:53Z")
Zugzwang means a situation where you’d want to just skip your turn, if such a thing were allowed. It’s not just that all your moves are bad, it’s also that you’d be ok or winning if you had the same position with your opponent to move. A mutual zugzwang is a position where both players would prefer their opponent to have the move. The basic example of a mutual zugzwang is something like white with a king on d6 and a pawn on e7, and black with his king on e8. If it’s black’s move he loses, but if it’s white’s move he can only draw. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/32 "2005-12-11T16:57:39Z")
Hijack: new proposal for regular chess – taking the pass. I love coming up with new rules for just about any kind of game, and everybody talking about passing made me think out this one: Basically either player can always pass in his or her turn, except in the following situations: - If either player has passed in the previous two turns. As an example, if black passes, then white cannot pass in turn, nor can black pass a second time in a row. Then the pass can be ‘taken’ again. - No player can take the pass while his king is under check, in accordance with the usual rules regarding check: a player in check MUST move to avoid, counter, or block the attack, however this is possible. (If a player is under double check, as usual, he cannot attack a checking piece with one of his non-king pieces, or move a piece between the attacking piece and his king, he must move the king to a safe place. [he can attack with the king so long as the piece the king captures is not covered.]) - Hi, Opal!! There would be a couple of reasonable ways to rule the interaction of passing with a stalemate situation: [ul] [li]Stalemate is the same as ever, automatic draw. Stalemated player cannot ‘get out of it’ by taking the pass, even if it is available.[/li][li]Stalemated player may choose to ‘get out of it’ by taking an available pass, or can choose to not take the pass and thus draw, as he pleases.[/li][li]If the pass is available, and the only legal ‘move’, it must be taken. Stalemate thus cannot apply while the pass is available under rule 1 above.[/li][/ul] Any notions how this would affect the play of chess?? Is there some other subtle situation that would need to be addressed to make this consistent with the other rules of chess?? ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/33 "2005-12-11T17:11:48Z")
I’ll sometimes go for a rook, under these conditions: 1. I’ve got the game well in hand and just want the pawn promoted to finish the game faster. 2. I still have my queen, but have lost a rook. By selecting a rook, I don’t have to use an upside down rook for a queen. It looks a little funky, you know? ~Baal~ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440/34 "2005-12-11T17:17:21Z")
[From www.dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zugzwang): > [@](#): > > A situation in a chess game in which a player is forced to make an undesirable or disadvantageous move. If you have time, you can peruse [www.chessvariants.com](http://www.chessvariants.com). There are quite a few variants. I don’t know if any of them (other than Korean Chess) have a passing permitted rule, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s at least one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-question-why-not-get-a-new-queen/334440.md?page=1)