# Chess training game between glee and NAF1138 - comments etc **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** chess\ **Created:** [January 31, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289 "2020-01-31T13:26:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/61 "2020-02-20T04:09:35Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Myself, I’d reject exf6 outright just based on the fact that it opens kingside lines. I invite Black to bypass pawn exchanges, keeping that side closed and my king safe. Well, while I appreciate the sentiment, and I can use all the advice I can get, do you have an alternative suggestion because building up a king side attack has pretty much been my whole plan to this point. Also, I castled long already. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/62 "2020-02-20T04:30:13Z")
And, before you answer that, I am figuring I have basically two choices right now. Take the attack to white before he can finish establishing his attack on black (I’m thinking f5 though I had been thinking g6 up until I realized my error with my rook, not sure how good an idea that would have been anyway, but I gave that up with my last move so it’s sort of moot) or play defense with Qb7 which… I’m not even sure how effective a defense that is. I think I’m going for the pawn exchange though. Feels like playing defense is against the spirit of this game. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/63 "2020-02-20T04:39:16Z")
So, tell me if this thought process makes sense. My feeling is that my biggest problem long term is the pawn on e5. I need to handle that now because if I wait any longer I have that problem plus the attack on the flank that white is building and I can’t fight on two fronts and lose rapidly. I feel like I am about as well supported for an attack on the king side flank as I’m going to be and am out of time since the queen side attack is starting. I do feel like I managed to be much further behind than I intended to be and it happened sort of suddenly. I’m not sure where I went wrong to this point though. Should I have dealt with the e5 pawn sooner? If so, how? Castled sooner maybe? I almost always castle long with the French and while it gave me pause when glee went king side, I didn’t feel like it was a bad idea even still. But maybe that was an error? I am absolutely feeling the squeeze though. Maybe you guys can help me break down the story so far? (this is all in reference to the game up to move 19 for those reading not in real time.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/64 "2020-02-20T10:10:44Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > … because building up a king side attack has pretty much been my whole plan to this point. Also, I castled long already. We are both committed now to our attacks on opposite sides of the board. Even a single move (called a ‘tempo’) can make a difference in such situations. It was tricky for you to decide where to put your rooks (this is an underestimated part of the game!) Maybe spending two moves putting rooks on f8 + g8 was a luxury - we shall see… I’m hopeful that my rooks ‘belong’ on a1 and d1 in this position - again the next few moves will show if that’s true. > [@NAF1138](#): > > My feeling is that my biggest problem long term is the pawn on e5. Well that is White’s strength in the Advanced French! Nimzowitsch said that it was better to undermine the e5 pawn in this variation (e.g. by playing c5 to attack d4), rather than play f6 to attack it directly. I think a key moment in this game for me was deciding to play 11. dxc5. This left the e5 pawn with less support, but: - with the White-square bishops exchanged, I didn’t want my pawns fixed on d4 + e5 (blocking my bishop) - suspecting that Black intended to castle Queendside (especially after I played h4 + h5), I was already opening lines through to his King ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/65 "2020-02-20T18:43:14Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Myself, I’d reject exf6 outright just based on the fact that it opens kingside lines. I invite Black to bypass pawn exchanges, keeping that side closed and my king safe. Well observed! I preferred Nd6+ to exf6 (en passant) both for the reason you give, plus the fact that after exf6 gxf6 Black will be able to force a later …e5. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/66 "2020-02-20T18:44:30Z")
I must warn NAF1138 that I can see some losing moves for him (after Nd6+) - so be careful! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/67 "2020-02-20T18:51:37Z")
never mind (duplicate) ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/68 "2020-02-20T19:29:10Z")
Trading off my bishop for your knight seems pretty reasonable. I don’t think it is putting me in specific danger and, while it does advance your pawn, simplifies things and at the moment the knight seems the more valuable piece with the clogged center. That will likely change but I only have so many options and this seems like the best one. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/69 "2020-02-20T21:54:02Z")
I think 20. …Bxd6 was the only move! a. If 20. …Kb8 21. b4\* cxb4 _threatening b5 22. axb4_\* Naxb4 \*\*threatening Rxa6 23. Nxb4 Nxb4 24. Rdb1 and the Knight on b4 is soon captured due to the pin against the King. b. If 20. …Kb8 21. b4\* cxb4 _threatening b5 22. axb4_\* Naxb4 \*\*threatening Rxa6 23. Nxb4 Nxb4 24. Rxa7+ wins the Queen. c. If If 20. …Kd8 21. b4\* cxb4 _threatening b5 22. axb4_\* Naxb4 \*\*threatening Rxa6 23. Nxb4 Nxb4 24. Rxd4 with serious threats against both the King and Queen down the d-file. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/70 "2020-02-20T22:11:34Z")
Well, I didn’t see that far ahead on any of those king moves but I’m glad my instinct to stay active and simplify the position didn’t lead me astray! ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/71 "2020-02-21T00:58:44Z")
> [@glee](#): > > and the Knight on b4 is soon captured due to the pin against the King. > > b. If > **20. …Kb8** > 21. b4\* cxb4 _threatening b5 > 22. axb4_\* Naxb4 \*\*threatening Rxa6 > 23. Nxb4 Nxb4 > 24. Rxa7+ > > wins the Queen. I couldn’t follow your analysis, but then I realized you meant Kc7 in the bolded part. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/72 "2020-02-21T01:08:05Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Trading off my bishop for your knight seems pretty reasonable. I don’t think it is putting me in specific danger and, while it does advance your pawn, simplifies things and at the moment the knight seems the more valuable piece with the clogged center. > > That will likely change but I only have so many options and this seems like the best one. BxN is by far the best move, and one that should be anticipated before even playing f5. If you weren’t going to play BxN, you shouldn’t play f5. You made the right decision. I’d say this game is going to come down to the classic mistake of not completing the opening before playing the middlegame. I always tell my students that a beginner develops one piece or two, then starts attacking. An intermediate player, having been punished for this in the past, develops three or four pieces, but then for some reason starts attacking. You need to get all your pieces off the back rank and your rooks connected before undertaking operations in the center. After Ba6, you’re developing all of White’s pieces for him while spending three moves to get a knight to c7. That left you no time to counter dxc5, c4, and the subsequent. My advice to you now would be 1) don’t panic, 2) expecting the opening of queenside files, position your pieces where they can attack the kingside and defend the queenside simultaneously. If you’re to weather the storm and turn the tide, your pieces need to be red-lining their engines. No slouches! 3) He can’t mate you without pieces, and you’re winning the endgame. Trades are good for you, bad for glee. 4) a material deficiency can lead to a draw, but a checkmated king cannot. You’re in exchange-sac-mode from here on out. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/73 "2020-02-21T01:28:25Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/74 "2020-02-21T02:31:08Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > My advice to you now would be 1) don’t panic, 2) expecting the opening of queenside files, position your pieces where they can attack the kingside and defend the queenside simultaneously. If you’re to weather the storm and turn the tide, your pieces need to be red-lining their engines. No slouches! 3) He can’t mate you without pieces, and you’re winning the endgame. Trades are good for you, bad for glee. 4) a material deficiency can lead to a draw, but a checkmated king cannot. You’re in exchange-sac-mode from here on out. Thanks! This is extremely helpful if not necessarily easy. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/75 "2020-02-21T08:57:42Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I couldn’t follow your analysis, but then I realized you meant Kc7 in the bolded part. Thanks - that was a ‘cut + paste’ error! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/76 "2020-02-21T09:16:38Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > BxN is by far the best move, and one that should be anticipated before even playing f5. If you weren’t going to play BxN, you shouldn’t play f5. You made the right decision. All true - but this shows how deep (and difficult) chess is. You can only say Bxd6 is the best move if you see the three lines of analysis I posted (i.e. if Black moved his King instead.) > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I’d say this game is going to come down to the classic mistake of not completing the opening before playing the middlegame. I always tell my students that a beginner develops one piece or two, then starts attacking. An intermediate player, having been punished for this in the past, develops three or four pieces, but then for some reason starts attacking. You need to get all your pieces off the back rank and your rooks connected before undertaking operations in the center. In general, that’s good advice. But it’s different e.g. when the centre is blocked. Note that I played 5. h4 and 6. h5 instead of developing pieces. :eek: I understood that in the Advanced French: - I had time to advance on the wing - the pawn on h5 would be useful alongside the pawn on e5 > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > After Ba6, you’re developing all of White’s pieces for him while spending three moves to get a knight to c7. That left you no time to counter dxc5, c4, and the subsequent. No, sorry - Ba6 is a respectable idea against the Advanced French. The pawn structure (Black pawns fixed on e6 + d5) means the bishop on c8 is likely to have no future. It’s well worthwhile taking time to exchange it (for one of White’s best pieces.) > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > My advice to you now would be 1) don’t panic, 2) expecting the opening of queenside files, position your pieces where they can attack the kingside and defend the queenside simultaneously. If you’re to weather the storm and turn the tide, your pieces need to be red-lining their engines. No slouches! 3) He can’t mate you without pieces, and you’re winning the endgame. Trades are good for you, bad for glee. 4) a material deficiency can lead to a draw, but a checkmated king cannot. You’re in exchange-sac-mode from here on out. This is all true (especially not panicking. 🆒 ) However it’s **not easy** to get Black pieces working on both wings. (The knight on a6 needs to defend the pawn on c5; the rooks can’t reach the Queenside for several moves etc.) It’s true that the passed pawn on d4 gives Black and endgame advantage - but I knew the risk when I played 11. dxc5. It’s also **very hard** for Black to exchange pieces. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/77 "2020-02-22T14:50:41Z")
I can not see any move that I can make right now that doesn’t result in me going down at least a pawn within a few moves. This is why it’s taking me so long to move. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/78 "2020-02-22T22:31:47Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > I can not see any move that I can make right now that doesn’t result in me going down at least a pawn within a few moves. > > This is why it’s taking me so long to move. I think this is a key moment and you are right to spend time here. White is preparing b4, which will break open the Queenside and endanger Black’s king. Here’s one plausible continuation: 21. …g5 22. hxg6 e.p. Rxg6 23 Qf3 Rfg8 24. g3 and White strongly threatens 25. b4, when after 25. b4 cxb4 26. axb4 Naxb4 27. Nxb4 Nxb4 28. Qa8 mate! I haven’t seen a defence to this yet e.g. 21. …g5 22. hxg6 e.p. Rxg6 23 Qf3 Rfg8 24. g3 Qb7 25. b4 cxb4 26. axb4 Naxb4 27. Nxb4 Nxb4 28. d7+, when Black loses his Queen or is mated. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/79 "2020-02-23T20:03:45Z")
Moving my g pawn seems to be losing no matter how I look at it, so I’m moving my rook… Again. Rather like rearaning deck chairs on the Titanic. Oh well, nothing to do now. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289/80 "2020-02-24T18:54:54Z")
Actually I think 21. …Re8 is a good effort. There are possibilities of a pin on the e-file if Black can play …e5, and the rook is slightly less vulnerable on e8 than f8. I agree you are heading for an iceberg\*, but at least you’re steering the ship! \*Just a small one, but a pawn ahead is still important.😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-between-glee-and-naf1138-comments-etc/847289.md?page=5)