# Chess - training game (Glee v SiXSwordS) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 13, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301 "2009-05-13T16:13:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/41 "2009-05-16T00:45:41Z")
> [@glee](#): > > SiXSwordS, > don’t forget you can ask for advice at any time. Thank You. I was hoping to make it past my first move before I started sweating. No such luck. > [@](#): > > Also there are various interesting and entertaining comments in the thread - would you find it easier if these were in another thread? It’s all good. I did see the other thread… I have always had a hard time with “named” openings. When I make a move or a series of moves and my opponent says, “Ah, the Lisbon Defense” I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing since I don’t know the Lisbon Defense. At any rate, this is about the center, and I feel my weakest center square is d5. Bringing out my Q-Side N would seem to exacerbate that weakness and trying protect the c-pawn by moving e6 counts on you taking the c-pawn (assuming you move d4 next). If we exchange pawns on d4, I’ve given up the center in my estimation. So, I’m not trying to be overly aggressive, but: 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/42 "2009-05-16T10:56:17Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > Thank You. I was hoping to make it past my first move before I started sweating. No such luck. > > It’s all good. I did see the other thread… > > I have always had a hard time with “named” openings. When I make a move or a series of moves and my opponent says, “Ah, the Lisbon Defense” I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing since I don’t know the Lisbon Defense. > > At any rate, this is about the center, and I feel my weakest center square is d5. Bringing out my Q-Side N would seem to exacerbate that weakness and trying protect the c-pawn by moving e6 counts on you taking the c-pawn (assuming you move d4 next). If we exchange pawns on d4, I’ve given up the center in my estimation. > > So, I’m not trying to be overly aggressive, but: Don’t worry about named openings. They are just a convenient shorthand. (I know the names of all the ‘book’ openings, but Kasparov can still crush me like a grape!) 1. … Nb8-c6 makes the Knight a target for a future d4-d5 by me. Too ealry to put the knight there. 2. … e7-e6 is not to primarily to defend the c-pawn. It’s intended to play d7-d5, then if I play my e4xd5, you can recapture with e6xd5 and keep a pawn in the centre. Playing c5xd4 later doesn’t ‘give up the centre’. After I reply c3xd4, I still have a pwan on d4. Effectively you’ve exchanged your pawn on c5 for mine on c3. The only difference is that I can now move Nb1-c3. \*\*Glee SiXSwordS 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 3. e4xd5\*\* (I’m going to offer to speed the game up a bit, since \*\*if you now play 3. …Qd8xd5 \*\*(the ‘book’ move), **I’ll reply 4. d2-d4**. This is not a trap; there’s no funny business; it’s just that recaptures by your good self are often the only good move… If you’re happy with this offer, and do want to play that move, then type my reply in and start thinking about your 4th move. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/43 "2009-05-16T11:44:16Z")
> **[Chess Board Editor - Apronus.com](https://www.apronus.com/chess/pgnviewer/?m=e4_c5_c3_d5_exd5)** > > Chess Board Editor; Play Chess Against Computer from any set up position. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/44 "2009-05-16T12:48:04Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Don’t worry about named openings. They are just a convenient shorthand. I also read your comments in the other thread and I already have a better understanding of several issues in the opening. > [@](#): > > (I’m going to offer to speed the game up a bit, since \*\*if you now play 3. …Qd8xd5 \*\*(the ‘book’ move), **I’ll reply 4. d2-d4**. > This is not a trap; there’s no funny business; it’s just that recaptures by your good self are often the only good move… Presuming the capture, I had already seen that my only real response is the recapture with the Q. After making my move, I realized that you had earlier opted to avoid bringing out your Q (which makes sense), but I thought you might decline the capture since your K would be exposed… \*\*Glee SiXSwordS 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5\*\* As for speeding up the game, I’m all for it. In fact, I’d rather see a mistake early, when it’s fundamental. I think I tend to make poor moves that aren’t easily exploited with one response and I end up in a messy situation down the line with few good moves and no clear image of what went wrong. That said, IRL, my schedule and emotional endurance are stretched this weekend and I may not be online very much. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/45 "2009-05-16T13:55:47Z")
> [@glee](#): > > 1. … e7-e6 is not to primarily to defend the c-pawn. It’s intended to play d7-d5, > > Playing c5xd4 later doesn’t ‘give up the centre’. …Effectively you’ve exchanged your pawn on c5 for mine on c3. The only difference is that I can now move Nb1-c3. Maybe I have already made a fundamental error. I brought my Q out too early ( a rookie mistake) even though it was to recapture, and now I lose a tempo trying to get her someplace safe..? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/46 "2009-05-16T17:34:34Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I also read your comments in the other thread and I already have a better understanding of several issues in the opening. Excellent. 🙂 > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > Presuming the capture, I had already seen that my only real response is the recapture with the Q. After making my move, I realized that you had earlier opted to avoid bringing out your Q (which makes sense), but I thought you might decline the capture since your K would be exposed… It’s true my king can be checked by Qd5-e6, but I have several ways to develop a piece and block the check (e.g. Bf1-e2 or Bc1-e3). > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > Maybe I have already made a fundamental error. I brought my Q out too early ( a rookie mistake) even though it was to recapture, and now I lose a tempo trying to get her someplace safe..? Well that would be true if the c3 square was vacant (for me to play Nb1-c3). But here although your Queen will have to move eventually, there’s no rush. \*\*Glee SiXSwordS 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5 4. d2-d4\*\* Sorry if you misunderstood. The idea was that you typed d2-d4 and responded with your next move, since d2-d4 was my stated reply to Qd8xd5. No worries - just trying to save time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/47 "2009-05-16T17:34:48Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I have always had a hard time with “named” openings. When I make a move or a series of moves and my opponent says, “Ah, the Lisbon Defense” I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing since I don’t know the Lisbon Defense. Something I used to do against club players (when I played regularly) was open with one of the well-known openings, wait for somebody to make a comment like, “I’ve always liked the Sicilian too,” and then make some move that brings me no advantage at all just to confuse them. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/48 "2009-05-16T17:42:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Something I used to do against club players (when I played regularly) was open with one of the well-known openings, wait for somebody to make a comment like, “I’ve always liked the Sicilian too,” and then make some move that brings me no advantage at all just to confuse them. 😃 Ah, the ‘poker style’ of chess. Sadly in match and tournament games you’re not allowed to speak (or distract, worry or annoy) your opponent. Also experienced players love opponents playing moves that bring no advantage. In a British Championship qualifier, a strong junior tried 1. h4? against me. He only lasted 20 moves. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/49 "2009-05-16T18:15:33Z")
> **[Chess Board Editor - Apronus.com](https://www.apronus.com/chess/pgnviewer/?m=e4_c5_c3_d5_exd5_Qxd5_d4)** > > Chess Board Editor; Play Chess Against Computer from any set up position. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/50 "2009-05-16T19:40:31Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Sorry if you misunderstood. The idea was that you typed d2-d4 and responded with your next move, since d2-d4 was my stated reply to Qd8xd5. I admit that I’m very distracted. I am taking the experience seriously, but that pesky reality keeps intruding! > [@glee](#): > > …experienced players love opponents playing moves that bring no advantage. > In a British Championship qualifier, a strong junior tried 1. h4? against me. > He only lasted 20 moves. 😃 I hope to do so well. I once had someone open a3 against me… and I _still_ lost. :smack: I think I should ask what to do here. As you mentioned, your pawn on c3 is actually helping me right now. I need to start developing on my K-side if only to castle, but I don’t want to recapture c4 (assuming you take) with the Q. That would lead me to move e7-e6. If you take c4, I exchange Qs which means you have to move your K and can no longer castle. Then I take back with the B which is in a [decent position](http://www.apronus.com/chess/wizard.php?m=e4_c5_c3_d5_exd5_Qxd5_d4_e6_dxc5_Qxd1*_Kxd1_Bxc5) central position aiming at f2. …looks too good to be true. btw, I like the apronus site! I like it a lot. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/51 "2009-05-16T20:59:12Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I hope to do so well. I once had someone open a3 against me… and I _still_ lost. :smack: 1. a2-a3? had nothing to do with the result! > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I think I should ask what to do here. As you mentioned, your pawn on c3 is actually helping me right now. I need to start developing on my K-side if only to castle, but I don’t want to recapture c4 (assuming you take) with the Q. That would lead me to move e7-e6. The ‘book’ moves here are: - Ng8-f6 (flexible) - e7-e6 (solid) - cxd4 (sharp play) - Nb8-c6 (OK) 1. …e7-e6 is solid because it defends both the c5 (not c4) pawn and guards d5. It blocks in the bishop on c8 (but that can usually come out later). > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > If you take c4, I exchange Qs which means you have to move your K and can no longer castle. Then I take back with the B which is in a [decent position](http://www.apronus.com/chess/wizard.php?m=e4_c5_c3_d5_exd5_Qxd5_d4_e6_dxc5_Qxd1*_Kxd1_Bxc5) central position aiming at f2. > > …looks too good to be true. (take on c5, not c4) Well after exchanging Queens, castling is less important. My King will be perfectly safe on c2. But there’s no need for me to take on c5, since there’s not enough pressure on d4. Exchanging pawns, especially in the centre, is another one of those choices that gets easier with experience. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/52 "2009-05-16T22:52:44Z")
1. … e7-e6 > [@](#): > > The ‘book’ moves here are: > > - Ng8-f6 (flexible) > - e7-e6 (solid) > - cxd4 (sharp play) > - Nb8-c6 (OK) …how do you mean “flexible” play?..it gives me a lot of options? …how do you mean “sharp” play?.. my opponent has to recapture? > [@](#): > > 1. …e7-e6 is solid because it defends both the c5 (not c4) pawn and guards d5. Thanks for catching me on the bad notation. > [@](#): > > .. after exchanging Queens, castling is less important. …in this game? …or in general? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/53 "2009-05-17T07:23:03Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > …how do you mean “flexible” play?..it gives me a lot of options? > …how do you mean “sharp” play?.. my opponent has to recapture? Yes, you are 99% sure in this position that your Knight should develop to f6. Although the other moves are perfectly good, they are a little more ‘committal’ (e.g. …e7-e6 blocks the bishop on c8 and …c5xd4 frees up the c3 square for me after I recapture.) The ‘sharp’ play comes after continuations like: 1. … c5xd4 2. c3xd4 Nb8-c6 3. Nf1-f3 e7-e5 4. Nb1-c3 Bf8-b4 5. Bc1-d2 Bb4xc3 6. Bd2xc3 e5-e4 7. Nf3-e5 Nc6xe5 8. d4xe5 Ng8-e7 which by the way is all ‘book’! :eek: [QUOTE=Glee] after exchanging Queens, castling is less important [/quote] > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > …in this game? …or in general? In general. Once the Queens have been exchanged, the chance of being checkmated drops dramatically. Now in the ending (you’re not there yet, but you’re well on the way), the King is a useful piece. And it takes a few moves to ‘uncastle’ (i.e. after OO and reaching an ending … Rf1-d1, Kg1-f1, Kf1-e2). \*\*Glee SiXSwordS 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5 4. d2-d4 e7-e6 5. Ng1-f3\*\* White develops a piece, controls the centre and gets closer to castling. Easy peasy! ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/54 "2009-05-17T15:50:06Z")
I’m trying to include my thinking, even on moves that I think are weak. I should be trying to develop my K-side pieces and move toward castling. Nevertheless, I have considered Nb8 - c6 to reinforce the center squares that your N move attacks. That ignores the weak square at g5 and would allow you to move Bf1 - b5, pinning the N and leaving you free to castle. Also, I may want the Q-side N to go to d7 to reinforce c5 and free up the dark square B to do something other than guarding c5. If I move Ng8 - f6, you might take advantage of the weak g5 and move Bc1 to g5 which would pressure me to protect the N with the dark B leaving it overworked. I could move the N out of harms way by following with Nf6 - e4, but I think it’s too early to be investing two (possibly three) moves in such a speculative tactic. I think the solid move is: \*\*Glee SiXSwordS 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5 4. d2-d4 e7-e6 5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e8\*\* > **[Chess Board Editor - Apronus.com](https://www.apronus.com/chess/pgnviewer/?m=e4_c5_c3_d5_exd5_Qxd5_d4_e6_Nf3_Be7)** > > Chess Board Editor; Play Chess Against Computer from any set up position. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/55 "2009-05-17T20:03:55Z")
\*\*Glee SiXSwordS 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5 4. d2-d4 e7-e6 5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7\*\* Sorry :smack: ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/56 "2009-05-17T20:33:59Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I’m trying to include my thinking, even on moves that I think are weak. Good idea! (Helps the spectators too…) > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I should be trying to develop my K-side pieces and move toward castling. Nevertheless, I have considered Nb8 - c6 to reinforce the center squares that your N move attacks. That ignores the weak square at g5 and would allow you to move Bf1 - b5, pinning the N and leaving you free to castle. Also, I may want the Q-side N to go to d7 to reinforce c5 and free up the dark square B to do something other than guarding c5. Nb8-c6 is typical in this variation. Nb8-d7 is fine too. Your main decision is what to do with your Bc8 (either Bc8-d7 or b7-b6 + Bc8-b7). As for White, I expect my next few moves to be (not necessarily in this order): OO / Bc1-e3 / Qd1-e2 / Rf1-d1 There isn’t a weak square at g5 for you. You can always push away any piece I put there with h7-h6. Now if you were to play recklessly with h7-h5 :eek: and f7-f5 :rolleyes:, you have indeed weakened g5. I will not play Bf1-b5 as you can reply c5xd4, attacking my bishop… > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > If I move Ng8 - f6, you might take advantage of the weak g5 and move Bc1 to g5 which would pressure me to protect the N with the dark B leaving it overworked. I could move the N out of harms way by following with Nf6 - e4, but I think it’s too early to be investing two (possibly three) moves in such a speculative tactic. As above - there isn’t a weak square at g5. \*\*Glee SiXSwordS 1. e2-e4 c7-c5 2. c2-c3 d7-d5 3. e4xd5 Qd8xd5 4. d2-d4 e7-e6 5. Ng1-f3 Bf8-e7 6. Bf1-d3\*\* ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/57 "2009-05-17T22:28:23Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Nb8-c6 is typical in this variation. Nb8-d7 is fine too. Your main decision is what to do with your Bc8 (either Bc8-d7 or b7-b6 + Bc8-b7). … > There isn’t a weak square at g5 for you. … I will not play Bf1-b5 as you can reply c5xd4, attacking my bishop… That seems like a pretty substantive misread on my part for that position. I feel I should be moving toward castling and that I should try to do it close to when you do. (If you castle and I still have my K-side N and B undeveloped, I’ll be making preparatory moves while you’re developing attacks.) I can see that g5 isn’t meaningful if I don’t move either the gN or the fB, so maybe I’m overestimating the importance of the B in guarding c5…? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/58 "2009-05-18T09:26:46Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I feel I should be moving toward castling and that I should try to do it close to when you do. (If you castle and I still have my K-side N and B undeveloped, I’ll be making preparatory moves while you’re developing attacks.) Absolutely right. You don’t want to leave your king in the centre unless: - there are pawns safely blocking the centre (e.g. 1. e2-e4 e7-e6 2. d2-d4 d7-d5 3. e4-e5, when both the e+d lines are obstructed) - the queens have been exchanged. > [@SiXSwordS](#): > > I can see that g5 isn’t meaningful if I don’t move either the gN or the fB, so maybe I’m overestimating the importance of the B in guarding c5…? The g5 square isn’t a weakness for you even if you do move both the Ng8 and the Bf8! ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/59 "2009-05-18T23:04:47Z")
> [@glee](#): > > The g5 square isn’t a weakness for you even if you do move both the Ng8 and the Bf8! I guess tilting at windmills would explain a lot about why my defenses are insufficient and my attacks dry up. my move 6. …Ng8-f6 Unless it’s a travesty, I’ll say now that I’ll castle if you castle on your next move. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301/60 "2009-05-19T11:59:28Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > Unless it’s a travesty, I’ll say now that I’ll castle if you castle on your next move. …or maybe now would be a very good time to ask… If you castle, should I? I have several moves left to develop my pieces and it might make sense to wait and use the moves to decide where my B and N will go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chess-training-game-glee-v-sixswords/496301.md?page=4)