# Chevrolet Volt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643 "2010-10-19T11:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/301 "2010-10-31T02:14:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > OTOH [remember](http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ev-batteries-dropping-rapidly-in-price/) that for these batteries “in a little under three years, the going price has declined by 60 percent.” There is a worldwide capacity to produce batteries in bulk and few doubt that prices will down to $250/kWh within a few years due to both economies of scale and competition or that gas and diesel prices will increase substantially … unless of course something comes along that decreases future demand … something like having a sizable segment of vehicles being grid-powered. At $400 kwh battery it’s still a $9,600 gas tank attached to a car that has an electric motor in addition to an ice motor. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/302 "2010-10-31T04:36:56Z")
So how much progress has been made about eliminating that awful diesel stink? If you don’t get rid of that, a diesel won’t ever be in my garage no matter how cheap it is to run. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/303 "2010-10-31T05:51:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … Analyses also show that our current grid could easily handle more than half the fleet going EV _overnight_ so long as they charged at night. … I need to [correct](http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.aspx?id=204) this statement. > [@](#): > > “off-peak” electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 70% percent of the U.S. light-duty vehicle (LDV) fleet, if they were plug-in hybrid electrics. … in the Midwest and East, there is sufficient off-peak generation, transmission and distribution capacity to provide for all of today’s vehicles if they ran on batteries. However, in the West, and specifically the Pacific Northwest, there is limited extra electricity … “Since gasoline consumption accounts for 73 percent of imported oil, it is intriguing to think of the trade and national security benefits if our vehicles switched from oil to electrons,” added PNNL energy researcher Rob Pratt. “Plus, since the utilities would be selling more electricity without having to build more plants or power lines, electricity prices could go down for everyone.” > > Lightner noted that “the study suggests the idle capacity of the electric power grid is an underutilized national asset that could be tapped to vastly reduce our dependence on foreign oil.” And for kicks some [details](http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/can-plugin-hybrid-electric-vehicles-keep-the-electric-grid-stable) on V2G and how the it would pay for the utilities to pay a premium to borrow some electricity from car batteries for a few minutes at a time during short demand spikes and pay a nice premium for the privilege. (It’s a lot cheaper than turning on the peakers and straining the transmission wires as much.) One model: > [@](#): > > Here’s one scenario: suppose you bought or leased your plug-in hybrid just like a regular car—except that your local power company actually owned the battery, charged you a set rate to recharge it, and paid you back when it took some energy out through the grid? That activity would all appear on your monthly electric bill. If your battery performance fell below a certain level, the utility would pay for a new one—and then rack the used battery with thousands of others, obtaining one thing the grid has never provided on any scale: distributed storage capacity for energy, particularly for variable natural resources such as wind and solar energy. I can see Project Better place working with that model - charging stacks of batteries at night and fewer during the day to have on hand for exchanges and while sitting around waiting to be swapped in available in racks to help buffer the grid (both to give power and to absorb excess) - for a fee that more than offsets any potential degradation to their lifetimes. **Magiver** , we are repeating ourselves now. Look to past posts to get responses to that concern. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/304 "2010-10-31T23:19:06Z")
There will be plenty of ideas on how to make it easier to drive an electric car. They will find ways to make charging or switching batteries more friendly and cheaper. It will work out fine after a while. If they sell enough and the users find they are practically using no gas, it will catch on. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/305 "2010-11-01T03:29:04Z")
There will be plenty of ideas on how to make it easier to drive [del]an electric[/del] a diesel car. They will find ways to make [del]charging or switching batteries[/del] bio diesel more friendly and cheaper. It will work out fine after a while. If they sell enough and the users find they are practically using no gasoline, it will catch on. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/306 "2010-11-01T03:31:32Z")
There will never be an electrical replacement for diesel trucks, trains, or jet fuel. Bio diesel solves a bigger problem more economically. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/307 "2010-11-01T16:21:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There will never be an electrical replacement for diesel trucks, trains, or jet fuel. Bio diesel solves a bigger problem more economically. Never is a long time. I don’t know if that is true. If you said, you don’t see it soon. I could agree. But the alternatives should be explored while a clean transportation system evolves. I think it will. But you are an old stick in the mud, mired in the past and afraid of the future. I embrace it. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/308 "2010-11-01T17:44:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There will never be an electrical replacement for diesel trucks, trains, or jet fuel. Bio diesel solves a bigger problem more economically. Most of the trains in Japan are already electric. The United States could do it, but it would takes decades. I’m a lukewarmer, so I’m fine with that. It would also be possible to run vehicles, even jet planes using ammonia for fuel. You couldn’t use ammonia for long haul routes, but most of the domestic traffic could run on ammonia as fuel. Ammonia will only produce nitrogen and water as combustion produces. It can be produced using only water, air and electricity. [http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2008/August/Pages/AlternativeFuelsTakingASecondLookatAmmonia.aspx](http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2008/August/Pages/AlternativeFuelsTakingASecondLookatAmmonia.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/309 "2010-11-01T18:11:46Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Most of the trains in Japan are already electric. The United States could do it, but it would takes decades. I’m a lukewarmer, so I’m fine with that. Japan is a small country with a dense population and 35% of it’s power comes from nuclear plants. The United States is a vast expanse of land where electrical rail is economically unfeasible and trains exist almost exclusively for freight. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It would also be possible to run vehicles, even jet planes using ammonia for fuel. You couldn’t use ammonia for long haul routes, but most of the domestic traffic could run on ammonia as fuel. Ammonia will only produce nitrogen and water as combustion produces. It can be produced using only water, air and electricity. > > [http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2008/August/Pages/AlternativeFuelsTakingASecondLookatAmmonia.aspx](http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2008/August/Pages/AlternativeFuelsTakingASecondLookatAmmonia.aspx) To start with, anything is “possible” but it would be financially unfeasible to switch to another fuel for jet aircraft. Beyond that, water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas. BTW, the exact same claim was made for hydrogen peroxide in the 80’s right down to the cost of the fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/310 "2010-11-01T18:21:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > To start with, anything is “possible” but it would be financially unfeasible to switch to another fuel for jet aircraft. Beyond that, water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas. Water vapor has an obscure negative feedback loop that ensures that not too much of it stays in the atmosphere at any one time. Not many know about it. It’s called “rain”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/311 "2010-11-01T19:18:04Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Water vapor has an obscure negative feedback loop that ensures that not too much of it stays in the atmosphere at any one time. Not many know about it. It’s called “rain”. Carbon dioxide has a feed back loop. It’s called photosynthesis. It produces oxygen. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/312 "2010-11-01T21:25:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Beyond that, water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas. I have no information on this particular alternative fuel but did you know that every molecule of octane completely burned in gasoline produces eight molecules of CO2 and NINE molecules of water? I think few would argue that diesel serves some functions in America very well right now, much better than electric could in any near to moderate term. City and suburban commuting, defined commercial routes around central hubs (be it garbage pick-up, or bus routes, or delivery routes) are not among them. And “never” replace jet fuels may be a bit of an [overstatement](http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1248). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/313 "2010-11-01T23:54:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I > And “never” replace jet fuels may be a bit of an [overstatement](http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1248). > > 🙂 Sounds like a wise investment opportunity. Go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/314 "2010-11-02T00:18:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Japan is a small country with a dense population and 35% of it’s power comes from nuclear plants. The United States is a vast expanse of land where electrical rail is economically unfeasible and trains exist almost exclusively for freight. > > To start with, anything is “possible” but it would be financially unfeasible to switch to another fuel for jet aircraft. Beyond that, water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas. > > BTW, the exact same claim was made for hydrogen peroxide in the 80’s right down to the cost of the fuel. I forgot to add that I was excited about the hydrogen peroxide claim to salvation when it was made as well as a truckload of other promising technologies. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/315 "2010-11-02T02:15:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Japan is a small country with a dense population and 35% of it’s power comes from nuclear plants. The United States is a vast expanse of land where electrical rail is economically unfeasible and trains exist almost exclusively for freight. > > To start with, anything is “possible” but it would be financially unfeasible to switch to another fuel for jet aircraft. Beyond that, water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas. > > BTW, the exact same claim was made for hydrogen peroxide in the 80’s right down to the cost of the fuel. Most of the long haul lines in Russia are electric. The whole Trans-Siberian Railroad is electric. The last time I looked, Russia was bigger than the United States. I’m talking about 50 years in the future. All our rolling stock and all our jets will be replaced and most of our electricity will come from nuclear power. My goal is to have 80% of our electricity produced by nuclear by 2060 as France already does. If we can’t develop a practical battery technology, then we go with ammonia. I expect to be in the process of converting to Thorium and Uranium breeder reactors. The Uranium Breeders will run from the spent fuel from our current reactors and from our U-238 stockpile. We may end up buying the technology from the Chinese or the Indians. Your hydrogen peroxide comment caused me to flash back on a Dilbert character called “Dan the illogical scientist”, who told Dilbert his idea wouldn’t work because he (Dan) has seen other ideas that wouldn’t work. I suspect that a lot of impractical ideas will become practical when diesel fuel goes over $10 a gallon. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/316 "2010-11-02T02:21:08Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Your hydrogen peroxide comment caused me to flash back on a Dilbert character called “Dan the illogical scientist”, who told Dilbert his idea wouldn’t work because he (Dan) has seen other ideas that wouldn’t work. > > I suspect that a lot of impractical ideas will become practical when diesel fuel goes over $10 a gallon. bio-diesel is already below $10. And hydrogen peroxide is going to be cheaper to make then liquid hydrogen. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/317 "2010-11-02T03:06:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > bio-diesel is already below $10. > > And hydrogen peroxide is going to be cheaper to make then liquid hydrogen. Then I assume that bio-diesel will be very popular someday. What does liquid hydrogen have do with anything? The whole point of ammonia is that it has more hydrogen per gallon than liquid hydrogen and it doesn’t require cryogenic temperatures. I expect algae to be more important in the future producing **food** than **fuel**. Since Algae can grow fine in saltwater or even sewage, it could be a major crop that would be insensitive to rainfall. We could make Baja into a major food producing region. It grows so fast compared to conventional crops, it could be harvested every few weeks. American agriculture is very energy intensive, so it would also save a lot of diesel used for agriculture. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/318 "2010-11-02T22:10:06Z")
Ford exec on CSPAN today, saying they have 5 alternative vehicles on the boards including a 100 percent electric. They also have Volt types on the line. They see the future is not in ICEs. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/319 "2010-11-03T00:57:12Z")
The best way to _prolong_ the future of the ICE is to get some fraction of the public driving EVs as that delays demand for gas outstripping supply (especially as more drivers in Cina and India join the demand pool). If you are a company that makes ICEs you want those vehicles to keep selling for a good long time. Yes, you also want to be part of the emerging technologies, both to not be dealt out of the longer term future, and to have those vehicles count towards your fleet averages for CAFE standards[li](http://www.hybridcars.com/incentives-laws/debate-begins-cafe-credits-evs-26216.html), but your profits are going to be in selling the ICEs for a while yet.[/li] I don’t think they see that their future is not in ICEs, at least not in any reasonable term; I think they see that EVs are part of making their ICE future succeed in the medium term. - > [@](#): > > … a new federal proposal on the table to give makers of pure electric cars bonus points to help them meet new tougher fuel economy standards. … Makers of electric cars would not only get a stellar rating for producing zero tailpipe emissions and using a super-efficient electric drivetrain, the carmaker would use a multiplier of 1.2 or 2.0 when counting toward its fleet-wide average. … ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/320 "2010-11-03T02:56:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Ford exec on CSPAN today, saying they have 5 alternative vehicles on the boards including a 100 percent electric. They also have Volt types on the line. They see the future is not in ICEs. How does 1 electric car become the future? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643.md?page=17)