# Chevrolet Volt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643 "2010-10-19T11:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/321 "2010-11-03T05:06:56Z")
One car at a time? In any case, there are 7-8 million new cars sold in America each year. EVs will not appeal to many making those purchases for at least several years, if ever. But 15% of new purchases being EV by 2020? Very possible, just considering households that can have one BEV and one ICE (be it diesel or gas). That’s a million cars in America per year. If each of the majors sell a 100K a year of 1-2 EV models each, they’d consider the segment very successful indeed. (For comparison, hybrids are currently about 3% of US new car sales.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/322 "2010-11-03T05:15:03Z")
More on the potential of algal biofuels according to a [new report](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/11/ebi-20101102.html#tp): > [@](#): > > Even with necessary advances in biology and process efficiencies, the resource potential of microalgae biofuels will always be modest mainly due to the lack of sites having all the needed resources, in particular available CO2, according to a new detailed assessment from the Energy Biosciences Institute (EBI) in Berkeley. However, the report concludes, over the long-run, algae oil could make a vital, even if modest, contribution to a US biofuels industry. … Like EVs, algal biodiesel might end up making a significant contribution to reducing the various problems associated with petroleum based transportation fuels. Neither is likely to _the_ single solution. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/323 "2010-11-03T13:41:49Z")
A new survey released today shows that at least 5% (but probably much higher) of new Danish patients admitted with Smoker lung’s (Chronic bronchitis) have become sick by air pollution traced directly to car pollution. This is a permanent and for the society a very expensive affliction. If increased use of electric cars could help prevent even a small percentage of these cases, it would go a long way to help finance the slighter higher cost of the vehicle. At least it would if gasoline prices reflected the cost to society and the individuals of these diseases. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/324 "2010-11-03T15:20:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Ford exec on CSPAN today, saying they have 5 alternative vehicles on the boards including a 100 percent electric. They also have Volt types on the line. They see the future is not in ICEs. Wow, you mean that only 80% of their alternative vehicle line is equipped with an ICE? Put that last nail in the coffin, the party’s over. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/325 "2010-11-03T16:51:52Z")
[Here are the five.](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/03/ford-20100302.html) > [@](#): > > Specifically, Ford will launch two zero-emission full battery-electric vehicles including the Transit Connect Electric light commercial vehicle in 2011 followed by the Ford Focus Electric in 2012. Three other vehicles—two next-generation gasoline hybrid-electric vehicles and a plug-in hybrid&madsh;will be introduced in 2013. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/326 "2010-11-03T18:16:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Here are the five.](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/03/ford-20100302.html) Apparently the guys in this thread think they will make one each. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/327 "2010-11-04T13:45:46Z")
**Magiver** , you may be interested in reading an article in [this week’s Economist on biofuels](http://www.economist.com/node/17358802?story_id=17358802&CFID=152477893&CFTOKEN=58885903). It is a bit short on detail but is nevertheless a good quick read. Their emphasis is on the use of bacteria and yeast to produce diesel and gasoline type fuels (by companies like [Codexis](http://www.codexis.com/), [Gevo](http://www.gevo.com/our_technology.php), and [Amyris](http://www.amyrisbiotech.com/), rather than algae (the likes of Solazyme) which need to then be refined. They also note that to the degree that transportation is electrified it is likely more efficient to use biomass to produce electricity to drive vehicles than to convert it to liquid fuel. My point remains that BOTH may have their place in the future mix. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/328 "2010-11-04T14:18:38Z")
[Here](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/07/bio-20100702.html) is a bit more detail on some potential “drop-in” fuels from biomass (including one algal) and a recent contract to [Cobalt from the Navy](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/11/cobalt-20101103.html#more) to develop jet fuel. And [here](http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/324/5930/1055l) is the study referenced in the Economist article showing that using biomass to produce electricity would be more efficient (the analysis was specific to ethanol however). > [@](#): > > Biomass could power either internal combustion or electric vehicles, but the relative land-use efficiency of these two energy pathways is not well quantified. Here, we show that bioelectricity outperforms ethanol across a range of feedstocks, conversion technologies, and vehicle classes. Bioelectricity produces an average of 81% more transportation kilometers and 108% more emissions offsets per unit area of cropland than does cellulosic ethanol. For the sake of completeness I must include this caveat that is the complete article on the other side of the firewall: > [@](#): > > These results do not indicate that bioelectricity is the preferred pathway over ethanol because there are numerous other criteria that need to be evaluated, such as impacts on regional water resources (29), battery toxicity and recycling (30), air pollution (7), and economic constraints (18). The optimal pathway for biomass will also depend on how efficiently other feedstocks can be converted to both liquid fuels and electricity. Specifically, the competitiveness of biomass ethanol depends on the cost of petroleum, whereas the competitiveness of biomass electricity depends on the cost of coal, wind, hydro, solar, and nuclear power. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/329 "2010-11-04T15:57:24Z")
I’ll read through your links when I have a chance. Again, it’s not that I’m against battery powered cars, I just think they are limited due to current technology where diesel is not. There is nothing particularly innovative about the Volt except that it prioritizes the transmission of the power differently then a conventional hybrid. It’s still the same basic setup using a sun-gear transmission. In a progression of technology, we should focus on diesel and bio-fuel first because it covers all forms of transportation. Let battery research catch up to the functional level needed to be cost effective. Building a car that performs on a lesser scale to other cars at double the cost is not going to solve any problems. It’s the difference between a Mustang with a V6 that gets 305 hp/31 mpg and a Corvette that produces over 500 hp at over twice the cost. More Mustangs are going to be purchased. If the goal is to produce less co2 and become energy independent then diesel is more effective in delivering cars people can afford. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/330 "2010-11-04T18:03:57Z")
Ito ,ceo of Honda said today: Its beginning to look like there will be a market for electric vehicles. We can’t keep shooting down their potential and we can’s say there’s no business case for it. They are the future. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/331 "2010-11-04T18:50:42Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Ito ,ceo of Honda said today: > Its beginning to look like there will be a market for electric vehicles. We can’t keep shooting down their potential and we can’s say there’s no business case for it. > They are the future. They are the future. but they’re not the present. As it stands now, a hybrid requires a monster battery pack and additional electric motors in addition to a gas engine. To make it price competitive the ice needs to be removed which means batteries need to be able to carry the car hundreds of miles and then recharge in minutes. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/332 "2010-11-04T19:51:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They are the future. but they’re not the present. As it stands now, a hybrid requires a monster battery pack and additional electric motors in addition to a gas engine. To make it price competitive the ice needs to be removed which means batteries need to be able to carry the car hundreds of miles and then recharge in minutes. I don’t agree about the recharge part. I suspect plenty of families would accept as a 2nd car something that had a 200 mile range, that they could charge overnight. I would accept it as my primary car. I have had my current car for 12 years and I could count on the fingers of one hand the times I’ve driven it over 150 miles in a day. Renting a car every couple of years isn’t that big an imposition. We could also displace a lot of delivery vans and taxis and such. For USPS, FEdEX and UPS, a electric delivery van would be ideal because of all the stopping and starting they have to do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/333 "2010-11-04T21:38:01Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > We could also displace a lot of delivery vans and taxis and such. For USPS, FEdEX and UPS, a electric delivery van would be ideal because of all the stopping and starting they have to do. I don’t see where an electric vehicle would be remotely useful for a company like UPS or FedEX. There is too much weight involved and miles driven to use an electric truck. You may be thinking of a [hybrid](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/07/fedex-converts-20090721.html) which would indeed have an application. Upcoming lithium air batteries may make small vans viable for short delivery routes (under 250 miles) but currently an electric van is limited to about 65 miles in city driving. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/334 "2010-11-04T21:40:44Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I don’t agree about the recharge part. I suspect plenty of families would accept as a 2nd car something that had a 200 mile range, that they could charge overnight. I would accept it as my primary car. I have had my current car for 12 years and I could count on the fingers of one hand the times I’ve driven it over 150 miles in a day. Renting a car every couple of years isn’t that big an imposition. Would you spend an extra $10 to $20 thousand dollars for this car? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/335 "2010-11-04T22:07:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They are the future. but they’re not the present. As it stands now, a hybrid requires a monster battery pack and additional electric motors in addition to a gas engine. To make it price competitive the ice needs to be removed which means batteries need to be able to carry the car hundreds of miles and then recharge in minutes. Diesels are not the present either. They have never gotten much traction for passenger cars in the US. They used to sound funny, like a rod knock.There is no big push for diesels, but electric gets pretty good press. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/336 "2010-11-04T22:25:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Would you spend an extra $10 to $20 thousand dollars for this car? For me, it depends. What does that money get me? Is it just the cost differential for the drive train? How much is the car without it? I would probably pay a 10% difference just for the principle. Which is why if I was in the market for high end sports car I would get a Tesla. Under my current budget constraints would not pay $25,000 for for a car that had the features/room/performance of a ICE car that sold for $15,000, but I don’t think that is currently a choice. I would, however pay $28,000 for a car that is equivalent to a $25,000 ICE car, but with my commute and free charging at work, I would probably make up the difference in less than 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/337 "2010-11-04T23:16:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t see where an electric vehicle would be remotely useful for a company like UPS or FedEX. … [FedEx](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/12/business/la-fi-fedex-truck12-2010apr12) and USPS have a different POV. > [@](#): > > “We would like to significantly expand the number of vehicles we have in this category,” Smith said. “But the capital costs are 50% higher than regular vehicles. Production hasn’t ramped up enough to bring down the expense. The regulatory requirements are arduous, and there aren’t enough tax credits or incentives.” … [Frito Lay](http://eponline.com/articles/2010/10/21/frito-lay-all-electric-delivery-trucks-hit-the-streets-of-columbus-ohio.aspx) also sees them as useful. The idea is that these trucks have very high mileage around central hubs. They can spend the additional up front on the batteries that can handle one shift at a time and the quick-charge stations to have them charged for the next shift and put on several hundreds of miles a day all gas free. For them, logging 100K miles/yr, the savings in terms of gas vs electricity costs and decreased maintenance costs, quickly pays for the upfront expense. Today’s lower gas prices makes it a harder sell, but the predictability of the expense is a big attraction to many a bean counter, even when the savings is, at this point, not dramatic or not seen until year two or three. The concepts range from PHEVs like that from [Bright Ideas](http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/20/bright-automotive-business-autos-bright.html) to all-electric trucks of various sizes from companies like [Smith](http://www.smithelectric.com/whyElectric.aspx). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/338 "2010-11-05T00:07:05Z")
“We’d like to use more electric trucks but the cost is too high”. Hmmmmmm Who would have thought. If only the taxpayer would front the transportation cost for a freight company. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/339 "2010-11-05T01:05:44Z")
Remotely useful? Yes. Very useful. Angling to get help to buy them? Of course. The cost analysis will be a dynamic process. If gas goes up, or the true cost of carbon out is taxed (the former more likely than the latter), then it becomes worthwhile. Again, it is not worth the premium for a 12,000 to 15,000 mile per year driver on a dollar cents analysis. But if you are talking about 100K/yr then the value becomes more significant. Possibly even at today’s prices. Still, doing it requires investing not only in the upfront cost of the vehicles, but for the central quick charge sations. I suspect that such investments are not going to be eagerly made until credit is more easily gotten and/or there are sufficient incentives. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/340 "2010-11-05T03:10:48Z")
UPS (et all) looks at every penny involved in transportation. I’ve talked with engine builders who’ve been approached by UPS and I’m not talking about conventional ice motors. These were outside the box kind of engines. They will put whatever is financially viable on the road. Having said that, I don’t see the standard brown truck going full electric. It’s too big, and the distance traveled is too far. If there’s a city route that’s predominately letters then an electric van would work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643.md?page=18)