# Chevrolet Volt **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643 "2010-10-19T11:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/521 "2010-12-09T07:05:00Z")
Please keep your facts straight. Like or not like the concepts of EVs or PHEVs, the Volt was in development _before_ the bail-out. To state that the Volt is “in return” for the help is simply a false statement. And those differences in economies of scale are not “minor”. Correct: neither point is even open for debate. Toyota dominates the hybrid space. 2009 was a bad year for Toyota and they lost market share. But [even then](http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/01/2009-hybrid-sales-toyota-slows-as-competition-gains-ford-is-big-winner.html) they sold 195,545 gas-electric hybrid vehicles, 67% of all sales in the segment, down from 77.5 the year before. Honda is next closest with a 12.3% market share. Ford made amazing progress, but still only sold 33,502 hybrids, a mere 11.5% of the hybrid market. The star, the Fusion hybrid? Sold about 15K. The Volt, in its “low production” first year, will sell just about as many and would sell more if only they had more to sell. The “tanks” are indeed expensive vehicles. But if someone is going to drive a 50K luxury assault vehicle, the hybrid version gives them 40-45% better mileage. You are very wrong to describe that as doing little to improve fuel economy. Bottom line is that GM would have been stupid to try to beat Toyota at the HEV game when everyone else together is not even coming close, even in a year of the worst PR Toyota has ever had. In one swoop they dominate a new market segment. True the segment right now is very small, but then so was the HEV market when the Prius was introduced. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/522 "2010-12-09T08:03:26Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Please keep your facts straight. Like or not like the concepts of EVs or PHEVs, the Volt was in development _before_ the bail-out. To state that the Volt is “in return” for the help is simply a false statement. And those differences in economies of scale are not “minor”. Correct: neither point is even open for debate. That is a specious argument. Of course it was in development before the bail out. So what. That doesn’t make it a money making proposition and their failure in producing hybrids is staggering. The company was in BANKRUPTCY. They have a fiduciary duty to bring the company back to profitability. > [@DSeid](#): > > Toyota dominates the hybrid space. 2009 was a bad year for Toyota and they lost market share. But [even then](http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/01/2009-hybrid-sales-toyota-slows-as-competition-gains-ford-is-big-winner.html) they sold 195,545 gas-electric hybrid vehicles, 67% of all sales in the segment, down from 77.5 the year before. Honda is next closest with a 12.3% market share. Ford made amazing progress, but still only sold 33,502 hybrids, a mere 11.5% of the hybrid market. The star, the Fusion hybrid? Sold about 15K. The Volt, in its “low production” first year, will sell just about as many and would sell more if only they had more to sell. Ford makes money. Hybrid cars like the Escape pay for themselves for the consumer. > [@DSeid](#): > > The “tanks” are indeed expensive vehicles. But if someone is going to drive a 50K luxury assault vehicle, the hybrid version gives them 40-45% better mileage. You are very wrong to describe that as doing little to improve fuel economy. Oh paaaalllleeeeeaaasssseeeee. 14 miles around town versus 20 for an Escalade. Stunning. The regular Lincoln MKZ gets 19/26 and the hybrid gets 41/36. > [@DSeid](#): > > Bottom line is that GM would have been stupid to try to beat Toyota at the HEV game when everyone else together is not even coming close, even in a year of the worst PR Toyota has ever had. In one swoop they dominate a new market segment. True the segment right now is very small, but then so was the HEV market when the Prius was introduced. Toyota will likely beat them to market with a real car when the price of batteries comes down. They have the infrastructure in place to service them now. GM is only introducing the car in a few select markets. ---
**Author:** ![Raiko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3da27b/32.png) [@Raiko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raiko)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/523 "2010-12-09T09:25:23Z")
Screw Tim Allen! that’s the only opinion I have on the chevy volt. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/524 "2010-12-09T13:36:17Z")
It’s not a specious argument in response to a false claim that “GM was bailed out of bankruptcy at public expense and in return is …” unless I am misunderstanding the quid pro quo implication of that statement. If all was meant was your oft repeated mantra that it costs too much right now, then I apologize for even responding. You do realize that the Escape has had withering numbers and that Ford is introducing a fully battery electric version of the Focus next year with bigger batteries than the Volt’s … and is introducing its [Transit Connect Electric](http://green.autoblog.com/2010/12/07/ford-transit-connect-gets-delivered-in-short-order-by-azure-dyna/) van with 28kWh of batteries. Hell, despite the fact that they are, for now, pretty pricey, [manufacturers are falling over](http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/08/autos/electric_car_glut/) themselves to release their own plug in models. How many will consider one? Different polls give different results. The poll that matters is how they sell over the next five years. Oh, that Transit Connect gives me an opportunity to [update the electric truck](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704584804575644773552573304.html) line of thought. > [@](#): > > Battery-powered cars will begin appearing soon in driveways of consumers, but electric vehicles already are gaining early traction in another realm: commercial delivery fleets. > > Staples Inc., the Frito-Lay division of PepsiCo, FedEx Corp., AT&T Inc. and a few other companies have begun purchasing electric delivery trucks. Proponents say they make more sense in many ways than electric cars. That’s because delivery trucks generally drive short, defined routes each day, which are better suited to the limited range of battery power. > > Moreover, electric vehicles can provide greater savings to companies than to consumers compared with diesel or gasoline models, not only in fuel costs but in maintenance. > > “We’re a business here,” said Mike Payette, vice president of fleet services for Staples … ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/525 "2010-12-09T16:40:21Z")
Electric cars are just starting. Nobody can predict what the future holds for them, but if the past tells you anything, the technology will improve on a steady basis. It is also good we are making them here. We will spearhead the improvements in every part of the car. We will be living with the car and constantly analyzing and improving it and the production. That is one of my objections to offshoring. China, India and other countries will be involved in improving and inventing products and manufacturing. We offshored one of the reasons to get a good education, to get a job using your education . Evs will help keep us more competitive. and involved. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/526 "2010-12-09T17:49:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Electric cars are just starting. Nobody can predict what the future holds for them,. Bullhockey. We can easily predict the success of an electric car. It’s easily calculable if they are cost effective or not. EV’s have been around since day one and the concept has been in practical use in warehouse machinery for decades. It will easily integrate into automotive use as costs come down. We are knee-deep in battery research now because of all the battery powered devices in use so the drive to improve batteries is already here. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/527 "2010-12-09T21:41:51Z")
Yes it is going on. Why do you find that bad? There is a plant in Michigan doing R & D on batteries. I find that a good thing. And I really do believe there will be great improvement in the future. It was not fully developed in 1920. batteries have been evolving a long time. But their specific use in autos will create more research. it is all good. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/528 "2010-12-09T23:41:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yes it is going on. Why do you find that bad? There is a plant in Michigan doing R & D on batteries. I find that a good thing. > And I really do believe there will be great improvement in the future. It was not fully developed in 1920. batteries have been evolving a long time. But their specific use in autos will create more research. it is all good. I’ve never said it was bad. I said it wasn’t cost effective. Specifically, the Volt isn’t cost effective NOW. Since it’s an easy upgrade from a standard hybrid platform they should be making cost effective hybrids NOW and make the change when it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643/529 "2011-01-07T20:51:35Z")
For the interested, the [Ford Focus Electric](http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/07/2011-ford-focus-electric-ces-unveiled/#continued) was officially unveiled at the Consumer Electronics Show. > [@](#): > > Ford says the car will officially launch at the end of 2011 here in North America … powered by 100-kilowatt electric motor with a 23-kWh battery, capable of producing 123 horsepower and 181 pound-feet of torque at its peak. Ford says its EV can reach a top speed of 84 miles per hour, and while the official range hasn’t been disclosed just yet, we’re told it should be able to travel up to 100 miles on a single charge (just like the Leaf). Speaking of charging, Ford says the Focus Electric can be fully charged in just three hours from its 240-volt home-installed charging station, though the car will take up to 20 hours to charge via a standard 120-volt outlet. … Price? Not specified but one would hope no more than the Leaf. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevrolet-volt/557643.md?page=26)