# Chevy Volt - What Were They Thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515 "2012-03-22T17:01:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/121 "2012-03-26T02:00:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Meh, it should be easy then to complaint to the patent office to nullify them and request the experienced Europeans and Canadians to withdraw their judgment on what is new technology. > > As I have seen, don’t hold your breath expecting changes just because of your opinion. a patent is hardly a new innovation. Virtually every little change to something gets a patent. I asked you to explain why the Volt is particularly special. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/122 "2012-03-26T02:20:10Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So by that thinking the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius were nothing new as there have been hybrid buses and train engines for over 40 years? To start with I never mentioned those cars. The Prius was a substantial advance in technology. And as an aside, GM actually purchased the earlier generation Prius system years ago. A better analogy would be similar hybrid systems already on the market such as that used by Ford. Nothing major compared to the Prius system yet there will be many patents to Ford’s version of the basic setup. Not sure if Ford started from scratch with their hybrid program but the layouts are similar. Whether you would call their ice engine a miller or Atkinson cycle engine is a patent version of tomato/tomoto. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/123 "2012-03-26T02:42:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > a patent is hardly a new innovation. Virtually every little change to something gets a patent. I asked you to explain why the Volt is particularly special. Already mentioned before, it is not the batteries as your straw man insists. > **[Site Maintenance](https://news.chevrolet.ca/en/chevrolet/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/ca/en/2012/Feb/0216_Voltec)** > [@](#): > > Toronto, ON (Thursday, February 16, 2012) – Chevrolet was honoured today at the Canadian International Auto Show when the Automobile Journalists Association of Canada (AJAC) named the Voltec propulsion system as the “2012 Best New Technology.” The award followed rigorous judging of 10 new technology entries by AJAC’s Technology Jury made up of twelve of Canada’s leading automotive journalists. > > “We are very proud to receive AJAC’s 2012 Best New Technology award for the Voltec propulsion system,” said Kevin Williams, president and managing director at GM of Canada. “The Voltec propulsion system is the heart of the Chevrolet Volt, which combines pure electric drive and an efficient range-extending engine to create the only electric vehicle on the market today that does not require a customer to make compromises on when and where they can travel.” > **[GM Volt Engine Named Best New Technology Of 2012 By AJAC - Canadian...](https://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/manufacturing/gm-volt-engine-named-best-new-technology-of-2012-by-ajac-55715/)** > > General Motors' Voltec Propulsion System, which powers the Volt, was declared the Best New Technology of 2012 by the Automobile Journalists Association of Canada (AJAC). > [@](#): > > “This was the strongest field of entries in the 16-year history of the award,” said Gerry Malloy, AJAC’s technology award chairman. “The Voltec system is a worthy winner, for it is truly a pioneering technology that is certain to be adopted by other vehicles in the future.” > > The AJAC Best New Technology award, presented by Shell Canada, was established to recognize new and innovative technologies that provide real value to the consumer. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/124 "2012-03-26T02:43:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Already mentioned before, it is not the batteries as your straw man insists. > > [http://media.gm.ca/media/ca/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/ca/en/2012/Feb/0216\_Voltec](http://media.gm.ca/media/ca/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/ca/en/2012/Feb/0216_Voltec) > [GM Volt Engine Named Best New Technology Of 2012 By AJAC - Canadian Manufacturing](http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/general/gm-volt-engine-named-best-new-technology-of-2012-by-ajac-55715) what is so hard about explaining your point? Cat got your fingers? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/125 "2012-03-26T02:56:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > what is so hard about explaining your point? Cat got your fingers? Meh, once again it should be easy to tell those car guys with more experience that they have nothing, this is just simple logic that you do not have. What is clear to all is that you do not check cites, nor you are willing to check with the reasons why others awarded that to to the Volt: “The Voltec propulsion system is the heart of the Chevrolet Volt, which combines pure electric drive and an efficient range-extending engine to create the only electric vehicle on the market today that does not require a customer to make compromises on when and where they can travel,” said Kevin Williams, president and managing director at GM of Canada." [http://applewoodautonews.com/2012/02/23/watch-and-learn-how-the-voltec-electric-drive-propulsion-system-works/](http://applewoodautonews.com/2012/02/23/watch-and-learn-how-the-voltec-electric-drive-propulsion-system-works/) > **[Breaking News - Headlines & Top Stories | The Star](https://www.thestar.com/)** > > thestar.com is one of Canada's largest online news sites and 100% Canadian-owned. Live news, investigations, politics, sports and the heartbeat of Toronto, Canada's largest city. > [@](#): > > The Voltec system has not just one or even two but four operating modes, Mepham explained: two pure electric and two that combine use of the electric motors and gasoline engine. > > The key component that enables those different operating modes, and seamless transitions from one to the other, is a very sophisticated continuously-variable transmission (CVT) module, although it is much more than that. > > Unlike most other CVTs, it comprises primarily a single planetary gearset — sun gear, five planetary gears and their carrier, and ring gear — similar in concept to those used in conventional automatic transmissions. > > A sophisticated computer control system engages and releases three separate clutches to permit power-flow through the gearset in four different ways, corresponding to the four modes of operation. > > … > > Its power output is applied to recharging the batteries rather than driving the wheels — series-hybrid operation — and only the large traction motor drives the wheels. > > Mode 4 engages the clutch connecting the small motor-generator to the gearset, while keeping it connected to the engine. > > The engine, in that case, is mechanically connected to the gearset so it can provide power directly to the wheels, supplementing that from the large traction motor — parallel hybrid operation. > > The system typically operates in this mode at highway speeds when additional power is required, such as for hill-climbing or passing. > > So there you have it. The Volt is not just an EV, or a series hybrid, or a parallel hybrid; it’s all three in one. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/126 "2012-03-26T03:02:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > To start with I never mentioned those cars. The Prius was a substantial advance in technology. And as an aside, GM actually purchased the earlier generation Prius system years ago. A better analogy would be similar hybrid systems already on the market such as that used by Ford. Nothing major compared to the Prius system yet there will be many patents to Ford’s version of the basic setup. Not sure if Ford started from scratch with their hybrid program but the layouts are similar. Whether you would call their ice engine a miller or Atkinson cycle engine is a patent version of tomato/tomoto. Decoupling the ice and generator from transmission at more speeds is a larger change than you give it credit for and is “new” in that is a major change over the Toyota system. where the power sources are permanently connected to the differential. I am betting that GM only coupled the ICE physically due to current limits on LiPo batteries and that will go away over time. In theory this should allow them to run the ice as a charge source and the electric motor as a motive source while keeping the CVT at a ratio that is best for the electric motors efficiency. It also in theory should allow them to get rid of the nasty split input gears over time, the mechanical losses are huge on that transmission compared to traditional transmissions at high speed. It is a big enough change that Toyota sure is touting it on their version that was released in Japan. Toyota’s ability to launch the Prius was probably more related to improvements in motor controllers and batteries, they were actually late to the game in prototypes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/127 "2012-03-26T03:36:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Meh, once again it should be easy to tell those car guys with more experience that they have nothing, this is just simple logic that you do not have. > > What is clear to all is that you do not check cites, nor you are willing to check with the reasons why others awarded that to to the Volt: So basically, you don’t have a clue how the transmission and engines work. I read the cites you originally linked to. You’re doing nothing but pointing to something and saying: gosh these award flingin folks must know what they’re talking about. The Volt uses the same basic planetary gear set up as the Prius. In the Prius the drive wheels are connected to the ring gear/electric motor and that acts in conjunction with the sun gear/2nd electric motor and the planet carrier/ice engine. In the Volt the drive wheels are connected to the planet carrier and is driven off the sun gear/main electric motor in conjunction with the 2nd electric motor that is driven by the ice as a generator. The Prius uses all 3 “motors” at the same time where the Volt mixes it up depending on what mode it’s in. The Prius is designed to maximize the efficiency of the ice engine and does better than the Volt when in extended mode. The Volt is designed to maximize the efficiency of the electric motor. Both are using some mix of a single planetary gear transmission but they’re doing it in different configurations to favor their main power plant. It would be unfair to say they are EXACTLY the same because the configurations are different but they are both using a single planetary gear system to drive the car. The Volt’s version is probably more complex in that they have more clutches and configurations. It’s basically a 3 mode vehicle compared to the Prius’s 2 modes. [Here](http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/1010_unbolting_the_chevy_volt_to_see_how_it_ticks/photo_01.html)is the best example I can come up to show the power split between the 2 systems. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/128 "2012-03-26T03:40:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So basically, you don’t have a clue how the transmission and engines work. I read the cites you originally linked to. You’re doing nothing but pointing to something and saying: gosh these award flingin folks must know what they’re talking about. They are car experts and reporters in the automotive field, what I’m using is logic, not just opinion like you. The point stands, there is new technology used and it was recognized already. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/129 "2012-03-26T03:42:14Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Decoupling the ice and generator from transmission at more speeds is a larger change than you give it credit for and is “new” in that is a major change over the Toyota system. where the power sources are permanently connected to the differential. > > I am betting that GM only coupled the ICE physically due to current limits on LiPo batteries and that will go away over time. > > In theory this should allow them to run the ice as a charge source and the electric motor as a motive source while keeping the CVT at a ratio that is best for the electric motors efficiency. It also in theory should allow them to get rid of the nasty split input gears over time, the mechanical losses are huge on that transmission compared to traditional transmissions at high speed. > > It is a big enough change that Toyota sure is touting it on their version that was released in Japan. > > Toyota’s ability to launch the Prius was probably more related to improvements in motor controllers and batteries, they were actually late to the game in prototypes. Some variation of the Volt will probably be used over the Prius because it is designed to favor the larger electric motor. They could also toss in another planetary gear set in a stack for a more improved extended range mode. Hard to say. depends on battery technology improvements and how much money is available to make the incremental change. They would have had to couple the ice in the extended range mode because at that point you’re relying more on the power of the ice (and the stored gas energy) to get you down the road. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/130 "2012-03-26T03:45:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > They are car experts and reporters in the automotive field, what I’m using is logic, not just opinion like you. > > The point stands, there is new technology used and it was recognized already. then you’re just parroting what someone else said. It’s as simple as that. You don’t know what you’re talking about and can’t explain your point. You should volunteer for one of the Nobel committees. You’ll just need a sign where you sit that says: “what the person to the left of me said”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/131 "2012-03-26T03:48:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > then you’re just parroting what someone else said. It’s as simple as that. You don’t know what you’re talking about and can’t explain your point. You should volunteer for one of the Nobel committees. You’ll just need a sign where you sit that says: “what the person to the left of me said”. Nope, then it should be easy to demonstrate to those experts to withdraw their conclusions, any moment now… Fun to see you forget that what a poster says on the internet is not reliable unless there are other experts out there supporting what one says, your beef is now with them and concentrating just on me is just going for the illogical arguments that we all know well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/132 "2012-03-26T03:50:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, then it should be easy to demonstrate to those experts to withdraw their conclusions, any moment now… I posted my point and illustrated it. You… nothing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/133 "2012-03-26T03:53:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I posted my point and illustrated it. You… nothing. Even a video was posted, and you are declaring now that more detailed explanations from more experienced people to be invalid, yep, that will fly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/134 "2012-03-26T04:02:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Even a video was posted, and you are declaring now that more detailed explanations from more experienced people to be invalid, yep, that will fly. YOU don’t understand what you’re posting. You can’t make any argument beyond “what he said”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/135 "2012-03-26T04:17:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > YOU don’t understand what you’re posting. You can’t make any argument beyond “what he said”. Not my problem, you and your sources (and as many noticed before I’m referring here to the right wing propaganda ones) do need to demand an explanation why most experienced people that looked at the issue agree with me, or just accept that the ones that are not understanding are your politicized sources. Sources like Motor Trend BTW help my point better than yours, they still declare the Volt to have better technology and specs than others like the Prius. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/136 "2012-03-26T04:31:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Not my problem, you and your sources (and as many noticed before I’m referring here to the right wing propaganda ones) do need to demand an explanation why most experienced people that looked at the issue agree with me, or just accept that the ones that are not understanding are your politicized sources. > > Sources like Motor Trend BTW help my point better than yours, they still declare the Volt to have better technology and specs than others like the Prius. Really? That’s your argument? Right wing propaganda? The absolute bottom of the barrel of debate. I actually made an attempt to explain the systems to you but even then you couldn’t be bothered to produce an argument beyond cut-and-paste. The Volt is not a technical achievement beyond launching a hybrid configured with more batteries. It’s not failing because of a right wing propaganda, it’s failing because nobody wants it. The niche is too narrow and the price is too high. you can buy 2 Prius’s for the price of a Volt. This was predicted by me and other people on the board when it came out. When the price point changes and the battery technology changes it will gain popularity. It’s just that simple. And when those variables change Toyota and Ford and everybody else will launch their extended range hybrids as money-making ventures. As it stands now, GM is pissing away an entire production facility on a car that loses money instead of making money. I realize money means nothing to you but in the real world that money would go into further development. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/137 "2012-03-26T04:35:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really? That’s your argument? Right wing propaganda? The absolute bottom of the barrel of debate. > > I actually made an attempt to explain the systems to you but even then you couldn’t be bothered to produce an argument beyond cut-and-paste. > > The Volt is not a technical achievement beyond launching a hybrid configured with more batteries. It’s not failing because of a right wing propaganda, it’s failing because nobody wants it. The niche is too narrow and the price is too high. you can buy 2 Prius’s for the price of a Volt. This was predicted by me and other people on the board when it came out. When the price point changes and the battery technology changes it will gain popularity. It’s just that simple. And when those variables change Toyota and Ford and everybody else will launch their extended range hybrids as money-making ventures. > > As it stands now, GM is pissing away an entire production facility on a car that loses money instead of making money. I realize money means nothing to you but in the real world that money would go into further development. And then you resort to the “nobody wants it” argument, once again, that is not the whole truth as already mentioned, and I already posted that the price of the Volt is indeed the biggest problem, so please do take care of your strawmen. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/138 "2012-03-26T04:47:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And then you resort to the “nobody wants it” argument, once again, that is not the whole truth as already mentioned, and I already posted that the price of the Volt is indeed the biggest problem, so please do take care of your strawmen. the original production run was way below other production runs and GM STILL had to shut down the factory for weeks for inventory to catch up to sales. It was predictable, and it happened. If you predicted it last year because you thought the price was a problem then you must be a right wing propagandist. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/139 "2012-03-26T04:57:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the original production run was way below other production runs and GM STILL had to shut down the factory for weeks for inventory to catch up to sales. It was predictable, and it happened. If you predicted it last year because you thought the price was a problem then you must be a right wing propagandist. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bemused](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bemused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bemused)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515/140 "2012-03-26T05:51:38Z")
You can always tell the early adopters. They’re the ones with the arrows sticking out of their butts. I wouldn’t buy a hybrid today. Maybe a decade from now, but not today. I understand all the arguments in favor, but I almost always ride a motorcycle and I’m getting 50 MPH anyway unless I’m really getting on it in which case I get 45. But wait until hybrids start appearing on the used car market, and watch how cheap they are. They’ll be dirt cheap; the people who bought 'em new are going to get hammered. Why? Two reasons: first, the battery. Second, advances in technology. The battery represents half or more of the cost of one of these cars, and it’ll fail. I suspect that for most people the claims of 100K miles from the battery will prove high. I have reasons for that suspicion, but going into them would just bulk up the post. Suffice it to say, they’re going to go bad. And when it goes bad, a new one is going to cost many, many, many dollars. So an 80K miles hybrid that appears on the market will have a battery value depreciated to zero, and the ordinary vehicle depreciation on top of that - and that vehicle depreciation will be extra high because of new technology. Our electric car technology is in its infancy. All the controls, the motor and engine management, the battery management, the regenerative braking systems…all new. All immature. All more than likely buggy. Oh, they’ll get better as the manufacturers gain experience. But guess who’s going to pay for that experience? The early adopters, that’s who. Bless the early adopters; they lead the way and they’ll pay heavily for it. That $40K Chevy Volt purchased today will be on the market in 5 years for $3K. And in 5 years, the new hybrids will be cheaper than today’s Volt, and better. Of course, since we’re talking Chevy, they might not be much better, but they’ll be better and all the better quality brands will have been learning as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chevy-volt-what-were-they-thinking/616515.md?page=8)