# Chicago cop essentially says, "It's not my problem, I'm off duty." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374 "2003-09-08T20:41:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/41 "2003-09-10T14:59:07Z")
There is definitely corruption in the Chicago police department, and it’s easily found on Google, but I’m not sure it’s any more or less prevalent than the corruption found in any police departments around the world. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/42 "2003-09-10T18:05:48Z")
WRT the OP, perhaps we’re being a little harsh on the detective in question. A Dominick’s, especially in this area of the “South Side,” would be jam-packed with civilians who make excellent targets or hostages. Also, IIRC the area is very congested and there are many schools in the general vicinity. The detective, realizing her feet were actually clay, probably reacted out of human fear or the desire to keep the scene as safe as possible. She likely avoided the situation in order to preserve human life, or at the worst, realized the biggest breakage would be loss of some cash. She probably knew Dom’s bank branches carry limited amounts of cash, and that most robbers just want to get their dough and get out. Knowing all that, keep it quiet there’s a cop in the house and leave the ID up to cameras and civilian witnesses. With all the detective likely knew, probably not the correct choice, but… THIS JUST IN: _"Although she was told a robbery was ‘going on’ in the store, Govern claimed to have seen nothing unusual, [police spokesman] Bayless said. “She bought her water and left.” [According to Bayless] a higher-ranking lieutenant showed up at the store…and ordered her to come back to the scene…_ Aw, nuts. I was trying so hard at Pollyanna. Separately, a good friend of mine is an LA Patrolman. Even off-duty, he’s always packing (used to carry a fanny pack up until he realized he was 8 or 9 years _uncool_). Eating with him at Del Taco is like trying to talk to a Bishop in a playground. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/43 "2003-09-10T18:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*ccwater: I don’t suppose you have a cite for that malarkey, do you? Or do you prefer that your posting above stand as a cite for your prejudice? \*\* All I can say is move to Chicago for a couple years and report back to us on your findings. If you haven’t noticed yet, the web isn’t the always-accurate, all-knowing database of information that some people purport it to be. … well I found it on the web (read it in the newspaper, saw it on the news, etc.), so it must be true … All anyone knows for sure is what they have experienced first hand. I agree that the remainder must be tossed into the malarkey-bin to be sorted out in time. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/44 "2003-09-10T20:13:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*With all the detective likely knew, probably not the correct choice, but… > > THIS JUST IN: > > _"Although she was told a robbery was ‘going on’ in the store, Govern claimed to have seen nothing unusual, [police spokesman] Bayless said. “She bought her water and left.” [According to Bayless] a higher-ranking lieutenant showed up at the store…and ordered her to come back to the scene…_ > > Aw, nuts. I was trying so hard at Pollyanna.\*\* We may simply have a he said/she said going here but one thing is for sure, a 13-year veteran is in danger of losing her position and the evidence suggests she didn’t want to get involved. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ccwaterback_\*\* > All I can say is move to Chicago for a couple years and report back to us on your findings. If you haven’t noticed yet, the web isn’t the always-accurate, all-knowing database of information that some people purport it to be.\*\* Let me guess, that was that another way of saying, “I know what I say is true, even though no evidence exists to back me up.” Human memory isn’t exactly infallible either, you know. ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/45 "2003-09-10T22:01:52Z")
full disclosure: Son of a cop, brother of a cop. (both NYPD) This article doesn’t talk about her being off-duty. That doesn’t sem right. While some high-ranking cops may have unmarked cars assigned because they may be called in at any time (like a captain or inspector to his command) A detective is NOT a high rank - I’d think excedingly few would have a car off-duty, unless we are talking about lunchtime during a work day being counted as off-duty. \*\* Hamlet\*\* has a good point. Now, there seems to be some dispute about whether or not the robbers were still there when she arrived. If they had left, there is little she could do other than try to organize witnesses and tell people to not touch things, and call in. Believe me, she calls in, she gets a MUCH quicker response than a civilian. And she should **NOT** be leaving. As \*\* Friedo\*\* said, > [@](#): > > Even if it would have been foolish for this cop to act alone in an armed robbery situation, there is a lot she could have done while waiting for backup. she could have done the things I mentioned even if they had left. If they ARE there, she has to assess the situation. If they have 3 guys with assault rifles, who haven’t shot anyone yet, and she has a 9 mm, observe, try to see them well enough for a description later, see how they leave (car? plates? etc), then identify yourself and do the do-not-touch, etc. Do not start a gunfight in a crowded market and get yourself or a bystander killed. Plus, only in the movies does a cop squeeze off 4 shots and drop 3 thieves in their tracks consistently. Even if she hits all her shots, assume there will be return fire. Better to let them go with the money and no bloodshed. Someone like that 90 or 95 year old in AZ with a note? Use your judgement. BTW, don’t assume the robberswere necessarily armed. There are a LOT more robberies than you think, and in many they only show a note: this from a news story in July: \>Police Commissioner Ray Kelly is again criticizing banks that don’t have proper security. He said there have been 50 armed robberies and 230 unarmed. And bank robberies have increases 233 % this year. [http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/topstoriesny\_story\_198071554.html](http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/topstoriesny_story_198071554.html) Chicago may well have MORE. They had more murders than NYC last year, second only to LA. (not murder RATE - total number. NYC is relatively very safe) \>The city ended 2002 with 646 murders, second to Los Angeles, which had 653. New York was third with 580. But Chicago’s per capita murder rate was the nation’s highest among big cities [http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/050403/new\_050403020.shtml](http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/050403/new_050403020.shtml) > [@](#): > > Danceswithcats, > > the linked article states that the Officer parked her unmarked vehicle in the grocery pick up lane, and was in plainclothes. How then did the citizens identify her as a Police Officer? Best guess? She’s simply known there. Could be her neighborhood store, or she’s handled cases there before. Last time I was on jury duty, I sat next to a detective. Knew it, because I knew the man before. AFAIK, the only person in the jury pool who knew he was a cop was me. > [@](#): > > Epimetheus, > I was watching a discovery channel special about the history of the police. In one segment, one New York officer was discussing the guns issued to police officers. One gun was worn with the uniform, and one was given to the police for when they were in plainclothes, “offduty.” The police officer said then that all officers of the law are considered “onduty” at all hours of the day, and are obligated to fight crime even when not on the clock. One thing - plainclothes and off-duty are 2 different things. See the guys on NYPD Blue on duty not wearing uniforms? That’s plainclothes. The off-duty gun was usually smaller, so as to be more concealable. Carry a 13, 15, 17 shot 9mm on-duty? Little bulky. You can get a 5 shot .38 revolver off duty if you like. BTW, the etymology of the term COP is disputed - also been claimed to be an acronym for Constable on Patrol. may never know the real origin. > [@](#): > > FWIW, I think departments like the MPD are in the minority when it comes to educational requirements. **Jeff,** NYC is similar: \>The New York City Police Department (NYPD)—and other police departments—is recruiting at more college campuses because one of the requirements for job candidates is that they attain 60 college credits before the department can hire them [http://www.jobweb.com/Resources/Library/Career\_Pursuit/Looking\_for\_a\_Job\_210\_01.htm](http://www.jobweb.com/Resources/Library/Career_Pursuit/Looking_for_a_Job_210_01.htm) IIRC some military service can be used in lieu of credits. (no cite) higher ranks can require a bachelor’s. \> Eligibles must possess a baccalaureate degree before promotion to the rank of Captain. (html version of a Acrobat link) [http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:mYQUij9WkCIJ:www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/pcaptain\_nypd.pdf+nypd+college+requirement&hl=en&ie=UTF-8](http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:mYQUij9WkCIJ:www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/pcaptain_nypd.pdf+nypd+college+requirement&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) > [@](#): > > suppose the officer is injured while taking action. If the officer who was injured when he tried to stop the robbery was considered to be off-duty when he got injured , he doesn’t get the benefits he would get if he was injured on-duty. Doreen, I do not think this is true in NY. If they act as a cop, they are considered on, IIRC. Can you cite? > [@](#): > > In numerous gun control debates of the past, when I complained about police officers being allowed to carry concealed handguns without a permit and in violation of the law even when off the clock and in plain clothes, **Anthracite,** Until a few years ago NYC cops were REQUIRED to be armed at all times. Not allowed. Required. Was it enforced? Rarely. But it WAS a regulation. My brother used to even bring his gun to come to my parent’s house to lift weights. This regulation has been relaxed, but it is still “recommended”, unless you are going to be drinking. Most cops I know don’t carry their off-duty guns all the time unless they are going to be in a questionable area. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/46 "2003-09-10T22:14:45Z")
Thanks for all the info, **lurker**. > [@](#): > > full disclosure: Son of a cop, brother of a cop. (both NYPD) Have you read [My Father’s Gun](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0452279240/qid=1063232476/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3375186-5817561?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/47 "2003-09-10T22:19:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ccwaterback \* > All I can say is move to Chicago for a couple years and report back to us on your findings. Ah, anecdote. Big whoop. > [@](#): > > If you haven’t noticed yet, the web isn’t the always-accurate, all-knowing database of information that some people purport it to be. I have not asserted that it is. OTOH, you seem to have forgotten that this site is The Straight Dope, not The Babble of Balderdash. > [@](#): > > … well I found it on the web (read it in the newspaper, saw it on the news, etc.), so it must be true … Ah, so you actually are a fool. > [@](#): > > All anyone knows for sure is what they have experienced first hand. Well, since it only takes one positive denial to prove that wrong, let’s go with the fact that I, for one, recognize that my perception of my experiences may not be the truth of that event. > [@](#): > > I agree that the remainder must be tossed into the malarkey-bin to be sorted out in time. Keep posting bunk as though it’s fact and I’m pretty sure your assertions will find their way to the malarkey bin quite quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/48 "2003-09-10T22:20:53Z")
Oh, and “MPD” is shorthand for DC’s “Metropolitan Police Department”, which only requires a HS diploma last I heard. ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/49 "2003-09-10T22:21:08Z")
BTW, Any word of security cams? That may be able to settle if she was there before they left… ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/50 "2003-09-10T22:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeff Olsen \* > \*\*Thanks for all the info, **lurker**. Have you read [My Father’s Gun](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0452279240/qid=1063232476/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-3375186-5817561?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by any chance? \*\* Can’t say I have. BTW, there is at least 1 NYC cop on this board. Wonder if he’ll kick in. ---
**Author:** ![dinoboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dinoboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dinoboy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374/51 "2003-09-11T06:21:39Z")
**ccwater wrote** : > [@](#): > > MOST (not all) Chicago cops will not take action against a crime unless they are ordered to do so. Chicago is so thick with politics and pecking order, everyone that works for the city is deathly afraid to take any action unless ordered to do so. I brought this up to my step-pop (35 years Chicago police, retired 4 years ago) and he disagrees with the action part and thinks it to be the other way around (though not the politics part). He knew of a few officers who he thought would take little or no action (even in uniform) but considered them in the minority (and thought less of them for it). He also did not consider himself any more ‘gung-ho’ than the average officer - most would (and should) at least do _something_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicago-cop-essentially-says-its-not-my-problem-im-off-duty/200374.md?page=2)