# Chicago's gun death tally vs. Chicago's gun laws **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041 "2012-11-25T04:41:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/121 "2012-11-26T23:08:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Every criminal was a law abiding citizen until the moment he was not. What is your point? That trying to say the problem is “criminal with guns” is an inane position. If I’ve never committed a crime but buy a gun with the intent to commit a crime then I am not a criminal when I buy it. Maybe we should only let people who won’t have accidents drive a car without a license. Or only people who will have their houses burn down need to buy insurance. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/122 "2012-11-26T23:10:43Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > The rate of private gun ownership in Switzerland is 45.72 firearms per 100 people" > -gunpolicy.org > > that is much more than just those in the reserves And yet they still have restrictive laws about who can purchase guns and how they are stored and transported. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/123 "2012-11-26T23:13:28Z")
I believe that socioeconomic status is a bigger factor than race, unfortunately non whites tend to be poorer and the cycle begins. But no if you are saying that race is the determining factor **Cougar58** this will get ugly. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/124 "2012-11-26T23:41:32Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I believe that socioeconomic status is a bigger factor than race, unfortunately non whites tend to be poorer and the cycle begins. But no if you are saying that race is the determining factor **Cougar58** this will get ugly. > > **Capt** Look up Oslo…they recently had something like 100 rapes in 3 months…and if I recall, they were 100% by Immigrants from Muslim countries. Not race in this case, but religion or culture? ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/125 "2012-11-26T23:43:54Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I believe that socioeconomic status is a bigger factor than race, unfortunately non whites tend to be poorer and the cycle begins. But no if you are saying that race is the determining factor **Cougar58** this will get ugly. > > **Capt** plenty of dirt poor folks in Appalachia with guns…other then the Hatfields & McCoys, they arent shooting each other every weekend. Chicago had 47 people gunned down in the inner city in just one weekend alone ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/126 "2012-11-26T23:46:41Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I believe that socioeconomic status is a bigger factor than race, unfortunately non whites tend to be poorer and the cycle begins. But no if you are saying that race is the determining factor **Cougar58** this will get ugly. > > **Capt** honestly, I am no more racist than the FBI - look up their stats…its overwhelming…in fact I am dating someone who has 2 black kids & who live in the Chicago area ( I do not - I live way off in the country on lots of acres. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/127 "2012-11-26T23:58:44Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > I believe that socioeconomic status is a bigger factor than race, unfortunately non whites tend to be poorer and the cycle begins. But no if you are saying that race is the determining factor **Cougar58** this will get ugly. > > **Capt** I travel often to Asian countries…huge cities, bigger than Chicago…Like Seoul…they have huge “ghettos”…as I walked thru such an area, I noticed a huge Korean pear hanging low from a tree out to within easy reach of people walking by…yet for weeks no one stole the pear, even thou many were hungry…I also Jay walked diagonally across the equiv of 5th avenue, and every Korean give me a shameful look / murmur…I also recall watching the TV news in Seoul about a knife robbery / murder - it was the top story for several days…(very rare) Why aren’t the wretched inner city Koreans killing like inner city people in Chicago / Detroit / Philly? I can assure you, one can walk the poorest neighborhoods in Seoul without a care for safety. And Detroits police just this summer told visitors to stay away. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/128 "2012-11-27T00:04:02Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > honestly, I am no more racist than the FBI - look up their stats…its overwhelming…in fact I am dating someone who has 2 black kids & who live in the Chicago area ( I do not - I live way off in the country on lots of acres. To be clear, I by no means said you were racist and if you interpreted my statement that way it was not my intention. I was pointing out that painting with a broad brush can be very problematic. **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/129 "2012-11-27T02:02:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Along those lines, y’all remember [this post?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15730720&postcount=1) Fair enough, though it galls me to let such a cornucopia of miscomprehension left untouched. I’ll leave off the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/130 "2012-11-27T02:40:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe that the 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms to all citizens, good and bad alike? So? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/131 "2012-11-27T02:55:13Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > So? It it’s own way, it creates a balance of power between those who want more and those who have it, those who have one belief and those who have another, and those who attack and those who defend. I like to think of the 2nd Amendment as the _most_ neutral of all the Amendments because it levels the playing field…but without allowing a way for _either_ side to come out ahead. Without it, we would fall far behind, and with it…we can just break even. To actually come out ahead we need to _add_ something to the table, and it’s that “something” I’m looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/132 "2012-11-27T03:06:10Z")
It’s a dumb-ass amendment that should be revoked, given the great many senseless deaths that result from it. Being shot tends to take the “life” out of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Quite simply, it stands in the way of limiting supply, which is a huge part of the problem in addition to the socio-economic issues. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/133 "2012-11-27T03:12:55Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It’s a dumb-ass amendment that should be revoked, given the great many senseless deaths that result from it. Being shot tends to take the “life” out of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Quite simply, it stands in the way of limiting supply, which is a huge part of the problem in addition to the socio-economic issues. … but one of the reasons this thread was started is that Chicago, in spite of having some of the strictest gun-control rules on the books, has one of the highest rates of gun violence in the country. Plus, people have posted numerous instances in this thread in which countries which have fewer or less restrictive rules than Chicago also have less gun violence (and in some cases, MUCH less). ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/134 "2012-11-27T03:32:04Z")
What I find interesting is the homicide rate in Oakland, CA 22/100,000, while the homicide rate in San Jose, CA is 2.1/100,000. That means that two cities in the same state only 40 miles apart have a homicide rate that varies by a factor of ten. Since both cities are under the same laws, that indicates something other than the laws involved are a major determinant in their homicide rate. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/135 "2012-11-27T03:53:02Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > … but one of the reasons this thread was started is that Chicago, in spite of having some of the strictest gun-control rules on the books, has one of the highest rates of gun violence in the country. Plus, people have posted numerous instances in this thread in which countries which have fewer or less restrictive rules than Chicago also have less gun violence (and in some cases, MUCH less). Local laws do little or nothing to limit supply. Chicago has some severe socio-economic problems. It’s the combination that results in the severity of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/136 "2012-11-27T04:00:28Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It’s a dumb-ass amendment that should be revoked, given the great many senseless deaths that result from it. Being shot tends to take the “life” out of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Quite simply, it stands in the way of limiting supply, which is a huge part of the problem in addition to the socio-economic issues. [this](http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/weapagetab.cfm)is interesting in light of what you’re saying. note that about age 25, gun/nongun murders pretty much level off equal. \*not EQUAL but more close than younger ages. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/137 "2012-11-27T04:17:30Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > … Chicago, in spite of having some of the strictest gun-control rules on the books, has one of the highest rates of gun violence in the country. … “One of the highest” is a bit of an overstatement. More than NY and LA to be sure, but [less than](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate) many others including New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, St. Louis, Kansas City, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Miami, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cleveland … oh and a few others. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > … something other than the laws involved are a major determinant in their homicide rate. Or something **s**. Chicago year on year numbers, once again, have been a consistent drop over 20 years with the first half of this year being a notable exception. Interestingly enough that increase occurred not too long after Chicago’s ban on handguns was ruled unconstitutional. But no, I do not think that the lessening of Chicago’s gun control laws was what caused the spike in murders. Interestingly enough though the national drop in violent crime oer the past 20 years (about half) is correlated with [a drop in gun ownership](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx), and the recent Chicago increase with a short term increase in same. Cherry picking data is fun but silly. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/138 "2012-11-27T16:02:39Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It’s a dumb-ass amendment that should be revoked, given the great many senseless deaths that result from it. Being shot tends to take the “life” out of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Quite simply, it stands in the way of limiting supply, which is a huge part of the problem in addition to the socio-economic issues. Prohibition said exactly the same thing about alcohol, and led to a dumb-ass amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/139 "2012-11-27T16:30:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > “One of the highest” is a bit of an overstatement. More than NY and LA to be sure, but [less than](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate) many others including New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, St. Louis, Kansas City, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Miami, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cleveland … oh and a few others. > Or something **s**. > > Chicago year on year numbers, once again, have been a consistent drop over 20 years with the first half of this year being a notable exception. Interestingly enough that increase occurred not too long after Chicago’s ban on handguns was ruled unconstitutional. But no, I do not think that the lessening of Chicago’s gun control laws was what caused the spike in murders. Interestingly enough though the national drop in violent crime oer the past 20 years (about half) is correlated with [a drop in gun ownership](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx), and the recent Chicago increase with a short term increase in same. Cherry picking data is fun but silly. Make a dumb assumption on the SDMB, and you get corrected with facts damnfast. Thank you, and others, for the links-I’ve learned quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041/140 "2012-11-27T17:35:44Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Prohibition said exactly the same thing about alcohol, and led to a dumb-ass amendment. Yes, but alcohol and guns are hardly analogous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-gun-death-tally-vs-chicagos-gun-laws/642041.md?page=8)