# Chicago's "Undertown"? (ANSWERED BY CECIL) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 19, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991 "2009-01-19T15:36:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/21 "2009-02-03T23:24:36Z")
Welcome to the boards! I believe I sent your publisher something like 4-5 letters (with specific issues and suggestions) when the first book came out basically begging to beta read - some other lucky person got there before me:) Love the books, can’t wait for the next one! Will you be doing any bookstore signings when you come in April? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/22 "2009-02-04T01:36:26Z")
> [@DogMom](#): > > :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: > > _YOU MET JIM BUTCHER???_ And you’re replying in **my** thread? > I feel so honored! 🆒 Can I have your autograph? > > (Is it true he has an Eldritch Glow about him? Please tell me it is…) You should be really happy now…lol ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/23 "2009-02-04T01:38:56Z")
> [@Jim\_Butcher](#): > > Please bear in mind that I’m also writing, you know _fantasy_. 🙂 Undertown was never meant to be a realistic description of Chicago’s various tunnels and underground spaces (of which there really _are_ quite a few, with a really interesting history). It sort of starts there, and then turns into fantasy about the time Harry starts getting twitchy about going any further. > > And hey! The Field Museum to Evanston is doable at 35 mph (which is how fast the TRex ran in Jurassic Park, and which is most likely physically impossible, but what the hell it was a zombie anyway), provided you have the advantage of being able to ignore traffic lights and stomp flat any traffic that gets in your way. 🙂 > > The fictional version of Chicago is… well, fictional. I get as close as I can within the resources I have (which were very limited during the writing of the first seven or eight books), but it was never meant to be a perfect mirror of actual Chicago. I mean, jeez, I’d never even visited Chicago until the release of book 9. > > (No parking lot? At your _baseball_ stadium? Who _DOES_ that? Answer: Chicago does. Now I know.) > > Dresden-universe Chicago is and was always supposed to be nothing but a recognizable facsimile. Try not to feel like I’m trying to describe the town folks actually live in. It’s supposed to be sort of close, and with wizards and vampires and zombie dinosaurs and things. 🙂 > > I’ve been working harder, during the writing of the last two or three books, to actually get a little more accurate, now that I have more resources to do it with. Up until the TV series went up, I was pretty much limited to books, intermittent contacts within the city who would exchange emails, and the history channel. Hell, when I got started on the series in 1995, the widespread use of the /internet/ was still relatively recent. > > Now that the series is more widely read, I know more folks in Chicago to whom I can ask questions, I have a Chicago-area resident who kindly beta-reads the novels for me as I get them written, and I can even afford the occasional visit. I’ve actually been to several of the places I’ve written about in the most recent couple of books, the graphic novel, and some of the short stories I’ve done this year. > > So, you know. I’m working on making the facsimile more accurate. Please don’t beat me up when I visit in April. 😃 > > Jim Hey Jim, Welcome to the straight dope, and thanks for signing my wifes book in Dallas. ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/24 "2009-02-04T11:46:00Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > You should be really happy now…lol SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE _ahem_ Why yes…yes I am. (eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…) ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/25 "2009-02-04T12:11:04Z")
> [@Jim\_Butcher](#): > > Please bear in mind that I’m also writing, you know _fantasy_. 🙂 Undertown was never meant to be a realistic description of Chicago’s various tunnels and underground spaces (of which there really _are_ quite a few, with a really interesting history). It sort of starts there, and then turns into fantasy about the time Harry starts getting twitchy about going any further. Wait wait wait…you mean Bob the Skull doesn’t _actually_ exist? ☹ > [@The most awesomely awesomest fiction writer EVER](#): > > Dresden-universe Chicago is and was always supposed to be nothing but a recognizable facsimile. Try not to feel like I’m trying to describe the town folks actually live in. It’s supposed to be sort of close, and with wizards and vampires and zombie dinosaurs and things. 🙂 Huh, you say that like they don’t live there _now_. 😉 > [@The most awesomely awesomest fiction writer EVER](#): > > Now that the series is more widely read, I know more folks in Chicago to whom I can ask questions, **I have a Chicago-area resident who kindly beta-reads the novels for me as I get them written,** and I can even afford the occasional visit. I’ve actually been to several of the places I’ve written about in the most recent couple of books, the graphic novel, and some of the short stories I’ve done this year. :eek: Should Harry ever piss off the White Council bad enough to get sentenced to Fort Wayne, Indiana (a sentence worse than death 😉 ) I hereby volunteer to beta-read any and all books involving Indiana. Heck, I hereby volunteer to beta-read any of your books anyway. 😉 > [@](#): > > So, you know. I’m working on making the facsimile more accurate. Please don’t beat me up when I visit in April. 😃 > > Jim \ \ \ \ \ \ ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/26 "2009-02-04T13:11:11Z")
April? Is this in addition to your trip in June for the Sf convention? I’ll be back in Chicago for that, and am trying to talk the friend who introduced me to your books to come along. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/27 "2009-02-04T17:25:45Z")
> [@Jim\_Butcher](#): > > So, you know. I’m working on making the facsimile more accurate. Please don’t beat me up when I visit in April. 😃 Jim, I’m trying to set up an interview with you - Cecil wants to do a column on this subject - but going through channels is taking a while. Can you contact me directly? You can get my e-mail through my profile. Obviously you have some big fans here. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/28 "2009-02-05T12:45:04Z")
It’s great to hear from a well-respected author here on the Dope. Frankly, I’ve never read your stuff before but based on the comments in this thread I will be picking up a book shortly. Here’s hoping you’ll come back for more thoughts and comments! - leander ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/29 "2009-02-10T16:52:01Z")
The author Gus Russo writes of this underground city in his book [The Outfit: The Role of Chicago’s Underworld in the Shaping of Modern America](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outfit-Chicagos-Underworld-Shaping-America/dp/0747566518/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234284530&sr=8-2). He even goes as far as to say that the term Underworld for the criminal fraternity actually owes something to the Chicago underground. I don’t know what truth there is to it but the book is very well researched in other areas. ---
**Author:** ![Drewg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Drewg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drewg)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/30 "2009-02-23T15:52:51Z")
Something I can actually contribute to, excellent. I recall, from a past Chicago Architecture Foundation tour, that there’s actually a place where you can SEE the sinking of a Chicago building. Granted, it’s the Monadnock, which is exceptionally heavy, as it has masonry load-bearing walls (and is supposedly the tallest building of that sort), but I’ve seen the evidence. If you go into one of the main entrances and look under the mat just to the right (if I recall correctly) there’s a window inset into the floor down to the original floor after the new one was built back up to street level. It’s no “underworld”, but it’s cool to see. I can’t find any photos online in a quick search, but this is a link to someone else who’s seen it: [http://vincemichael.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/lavra-layers/](http://vincemichael.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/lavra-layers/) ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/31 "2009-02-23T16:46:58Z")
Cecil is on it. Got an interview with Jim Butcher set up for Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/32 "2009-03-10T10:33:46Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > Cecil is on it. Got an interview with Jim Butcher set up for Thursday. Well done. Where can we check out the interview? ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/33 "2009-03-10T14:58:11Z")
The column that includes the interview is scheduled for March 19. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/34 "2009-03-11T16:07:30Z")
I don’t think I’ve ever gone to a reading/signing event, but if it means I get to stay up late on a Monday… CHICAGO, IL Monday/Tuesday, April 6th/7th, 2009 BORDERS BOOKS & MUSIC #020 1500 16th St, Ste D Oak Brook, IL 60523 10:30 PM: Pre-signing of books begins, followed by a reading. 12:00 AM: Books go on sale at midnight! ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/35 "2009-03-22T16:37:01Z")
The column is here: [http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20090319.php](http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20090319.php) I’m still walking on air from being in on the phone conversation with Jim Butcher. He comes across in person just as fun and wonderful as one would guess from his writing of the Dresden Files. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/36 "2009-03-28T11:36:48Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > The column is here: [http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20090319.php](http://chicago.straightdope.com/sdc20090319.php) > > I’m still walking on air from being in on the phone conversation with Jim Butcher. He comes across in person just as fun and wonderful as one would guess from his writing of the Dresden Files. That’s an awesome read. Well done to all getting the interview and putting up a great story. It was fun to read – and it sounds like it was fun to write/research/interview. One thing though: Are we \*really \*still pretending that Cecil Adams is real? In situations like these I find it kind of embarrassing. But otherwise excellent job all around. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/37 "2009-03-28T17:01:42Z")
> [@leander](#): > > One thing though: Are we \*really \*still pretending that Cecil Adams is real? Yes, Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Kaydee815](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/258eb7/32.png) [@Kaydee815](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaydee815)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/38 "2009-05-16T20:32:29Z")
Hey all, along the same vein, I just got a friend (he’s a Chicago native–I’m not) hooked on the series. We were thinking of doing a “Dresden files tour” of Chicago this summer, but, short of re-reading all of the books again, I need to make a list of locations mentioned in the novels. The ones I can remember: Gold Coast Cabrini Green (but so think we’ll be avoiding that) Graceland Cemetery Field Museum Hotel Sax can anyone think of others? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![vincentius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@vincentius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vincentius)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/39 "2010-03-10T01:52:48Z")
Morrand has the story quite correct about swamps and sewers. Chicago does not have the full underground city that Seattle does, but there are several cool spots, in addition to the aforementioned coal tunnels, which predate any Chicago subways by almost half a century. Wacker Drive of course dates from the 1920s and is mostly built up from the swamp. A dozen years ago I watched construction at Madison and State reveal an iron balcony a full story below street level that was the UPPER level of a two-story restaurant underground. I think Tim Samuelson confirmed that. Marshall Field’s has three sub-basements, which they quite regretted during the Flood in '92. At the time, many people wondered whether the flood would weaken foundations, but of course it couldn’t, since you can’t flood a swamp - you can only flood the artificially dry spots you put into the swamp. The Art Institute’s lower levels include some formidable sea walls, and it is worth recalling that Michigan Avenue was the location of Lake Michigan in the early 19th century before that little 300 acres of landfill we call Grant Park appeared. Monadnock has sunk a bit, but it is even more dramatic at the Auditorium Theatre, despite Louis Sullivan’s efforts to pre-sink it by piling pig iron on during construction. I jumped in on this because I have followed the Straight Dope my whole life, my blog was referenced in this thread and I remember when Zottis were in the McCarthy Building (1872-1989). ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991/40 "2010-03-10T23:35:40Z")
> [@vincentius](#): > > I jumped in on this because I have followed the Straight Dope my whole life, my blog was referenced in this thread and I remember when Zottis were in the McCarthy Building (1872-1989). We were? What were we doing there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicagos-undertown-answered-by-cecil/481991.md?page=3)