# Chicken or Egg, Which came first? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2007, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578 "2007-07-05T10:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/1 "2007-07-05T10:33:10Z")
After Googling for an answer I am no wiser, some say the egg, others the chicken. So I turn to the knowledgeable members of the SDMB to provide an answer, backed up with some logical reason as to which did come first ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/2 "2007-07-05T10:44:29Z")
You’ve seen the cartoon with the egg sitting in bed smoking a cigarette, contented smile and all, and a disgruntled chicken saying “Looks like we settled _that_ question”? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/3 "2007-07-05T10:52:22Z")
😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/4 "2007-07-05T10:54:28Z")
The egg came first. Eggs existed long before birds, let alone chickens. If the question is rephrased to “which came first, the chicken or the _chicken egg_?”, then it’s simply unanswerable because it presumes the arrival of either was instantaneous/unprecendented. There will never have been a time when something not resembling a chicken laid an egg that hatched into something resembling a chicken - evolution simply doesn’t work in big jumps that way. ---
**Author:** ![Montgomery0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Montgomery0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montgomery0)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/5 "2007-07-05T11:23:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] The egg came first. Eggs existed long before birds, let alone chickens. If the question is rephrased to “which came first, the chicken or the _chicken egg_?”, then it’s simply unanswerable because it presumes the arrival of either was instantaneous/unprecendented. There will never have been a time when something not resembling a chicken laid an egg that hatched into something resembling a chicken - evolution simply doesn’t work in big jumps that way. [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t the very definition of a chicken egg, be an egg with a chicken in it? So logically, if there were to be a first chicken, the egg that it came from would be a chicken egg. Hence the chicken egg came first? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/6 "2007-07-05T11:32:19Z")
Yes, except the other definition of a chicken egg is _an egg laid by a chicken_, so the popular quandary remains in place. There simply won’t ever have been a time when an egg hatched into a ‘true chicken’ that was laid by anything that wasn’t indistinguishable from a ‘true chicken’. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/7 "2007-07-05T11:36:23Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Yes, except the other definition of a chicken egg is _an egg laid by a chicken_, so the popular quandary remains in place. [/QUOTE] This is the definition I’m inclined to use. It’s a “chicken egg” if it came out of a chicken. So, by this definiton, the chicken came first. The very first chicken was a mutant form of something that was almost-a-chicken. It would have hatched from an almost-a-chicken egg. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/8 "2007-07-05T11:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diceman] So, by this definiton, the chicken came first. The very first chicken was a mutant form of something that was almost-a-chicken. It would have hatched from an almost-a-chicken egg. [/QUOTE] No, I don’t think there would ever have been such a dramatic mutation that anyone would be able to reasonably point at the offspring and say “that’s a chicken” then point at the parents and say “but those aren’t” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/9 "2007-07-05T11:41:23Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Yes, except the other definition of a chicken egg is _an egg laid by a chicken_, so the popular quandary remains in place. There simply won’t ever have been a time when an egg hatched into a ‘true chicken’ that was laid by anything that wasn’t indistinguishable from a ‘true chicken’. [/QUOTE] Sure there is, if we decide it. Dividing animals into species is a human, and on some level arbitrary, invention. If we draw a line and determine that certain animals were chickens and certain animals were not chickens, and that animals we define as chickens are descended from animals we define as non-chickens, then at one point in history, an animal we define as a chicken was born to non-chicken parents. And that first chicken came from an egg. So the egg came first. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/10 "2007-07-05T11:45:26Z")
Yes, but the lines we draw between species subdivide extant organisms from each other - dividing extant organisms from their ancestors would be a different kind of classification. I don’t think there will ever have been a time when the difference between a chicken and its parents would have been greater than the variation between that chicken and its siblings and peers. There’s more variety in the gene pool than the change between one generation and the next, so yes, such a division would be arbitrary, but not only arbitrary, pointless too. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/11 "2007-07-05T11:48:07Z")
In fact, what you’re suggesting is that we draw a line somewhere in a gradient and declare everything one side of it ‘white’ and everything the other side ‘black’ - sure, we can do that, but we’re making things worse by doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/12 "2007-07-05T12:45:11Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] In fact, what you’re suggesting is that we draw a line somewhere in a gradient and declare everything one side of it ‘white’ and everything the other side ‘black’ - sure, we can do that, but we’re making things worse by doing so. [/QUOTE] I read about a country that did that once. Didn’t work out too well as I recall. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/13 "2007-07-05T12:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Yes, except the other definition of a chicken egg is _an egg laid by a chicken_, so the popular quandary remains in place. There simply won’t ever have been a time when an egg hatched into a ‘true chicken’ that was laid by anything that wasn’t indistinguishable from a ‘true chicken’. [/QUOTE] Surely the definition is a “hens” egg and not a chicken egg. A chicken egg just doesn’t sound right ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/14 "2007-07-05T12:57:13Z")
That’'ll be the answer then: Q: Which came first, the chicken or the egg A: The Hen. Actually, ‘chicken egg’ is perfectly OK. ‘Hen’s egg’ is redundant, since cocks(cockerels) can’t lay eggs. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/15 "2007-07-05T13:03:09Z")
Hens egg is most certainly not redundant. You go into a grocers and ask for eggs, the grocer asks which sort, Hens,duck or goose. You tell him. BTW cocks may not lay eggs but they sure deposit them, resulting in hens eggs I’m starting to wish I’d never asked in the first place because I doubt anyone can give a 100% truly definite answer cos there isn’t one ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/16 "2007-07-05T13:10:06Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] ‘Hen’s egg’ is redundant, since cocks(cockerels) can’t lay eggs. [/QUOTE] Cocks _can_ lay hens though. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/17 "2007-07-05T13:10:58Z")
And chicks ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/18 "2007-07-05T14:07:55Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] Hens egg is most certainly not redundant. You go into a grocers and ask for eggs, the grocer asks which sort, Hens,duck or goose. You tell him. BTW cocks may not lay eggs but they sure deposit them, resulting in hens eggs I’m starting to wish I’d never asked in the first place because I doubt anyone can give a 100% truly definite answer cos there isn’t one [/QUOTE] ‘Hen’ is also a generic term for female birds of almost any species though, so ‘Hen eggs’ could actually mean anything, to a pedant. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/19 "2007-07-05T14:12:21Z")
[QUOTE=chowder] BTW cocks may not lay eggs but they sure deposit them, resulting in hens eggs. [/QUOTE] They deposit \*what \*now? Eggs? Are you sure? Roosters fertilize eggs with eggs? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578/20 "2007-07-05T14:52:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] In fact, what you’re suggesting is that we draw a line somewhere in a gradient and declare everything one side of it ‘white’ and everything the other side ‘black’ - sure, we can do that, but we’re making things worse by doing so. [/QUOTE] Not exactly. It’s more like taking a full scale from white through all the shades of grey to black, drawing a line and saying, here is where white ends and grey begins. It sounds wrong, in feels wrong, but unless you do it the word “white” has no meaning. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg-which-came-first/410578.md?page=2)