# Chicken or Egg? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409 "2011-06-30T18:25:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/41 "2011-07-04T21:27:19Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Why is this in the pit? Because the OP expected to be called a “retarded fuckwit” for asking, and didn’t want to disappoint anyone by posting it in a forum where they weren’t allowed to? That’s a joke. 😃 I agree with the OP that some people just take the party line. I avoid political and religion discussions with those people. So I can’t say if they are or are not a majority of all people, because I just don’t have any data on their prevalence in the population. Avoiding those types of people does that. A strategy I highly recommend. It’s saved me countless arguments with my Fundy Xtian brother-in-law (and his wife, AKA my sister). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/42 "2011-07-05T14:04:28Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > Lately many of my rants have been about people and their attitudes toward politics. Since users here are obviously of above-average intelligence, I’d like some other views on the topic. The question is: From what you’ve seen in discussing politics (and the world in general), do most people label themselves politically based on their views, or base their views on their accepted political orientation? > > To clarify, I would describe myself as conservative because my opinions on subjects like size and scope of government, religion, abortion, etc. tend to agree with conservative principals. I have met people before, though, who shape their political views, or their opinion on social issues like abortion, on the “party line” (and no, not the party line that advertises on late-night TV). > > Being a conservative, I’ll pick on liberals for examples, but I’m sure it goes on with both sides. I try to avoid political discussions in polite company, but I have had experiences in which I was inundated with liberal talking points and challenged the speaker to explain him or herself. Quite often, the louder they were, the less likely they were to be able to explain themselves. One girl threw out some mumbo-jumbo term about ten times before I asked what it meant. She said that if I didn’t know already, then she couldn’t explain it. Perfect. > > Add on to this the strange case of people protesting against capital punishment and calling soldiers murderers, then showing unfaltering allegiance to the practice of abortion. Quite often these people cannot explain why they have these opinions except that they are liberal and that’s what liberals believe. > > Has anyone else encountered this phenomenon? As a liberal I will describe how I have seen this cross fertilization of stupidity occur on the conservative side. I have a friend who has been a one issue voter for decades. He is against abortion and he will vote for whoever is more against abortion. This is always the conservative/Republican candidate. So he ends up listening to their position on abortion but also ends up hearing their position on things like global warming the estate tax. So now he has adopted positions on global warming and the estate tax by osmosis. He can’t defend or back up any of his positions but he knows that the baby killers are concerned about global warming and God’s candidate thinks global warming is a hoax being perpetrated by big money climatological research (boggle) and that the estate tax is going to be levied against his mother’s $100,000 estate. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/43 "2011-07-05T14:18:12Z")
I still say it’s the chicken first and all of you guys can go suck eggs! ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/44 "2011-07-05T14:57:23Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Ignoring you moving the goal posts here, I can square that logically because at the time that 99% of abortions are done, the fetus cannot feel anything, where as an abused dog can. Using your own argument here, if the fetus isn’t alive until birth, what does it matter if it can feel pain or not? If the argument that life begins at birth was a rational given, excuses like whether or not it can feel pain aren’t necessary. In your own arguments you underline your lack of logic. > [@](#): > > You are saying that there are places in the US where you are not allowed to send your kids to a private school? Or are you whining that you would have to actually _pay_ to do so? If a parent feels that his/her child cannot get a quality education at a public school, why does that parent need to pay for school twice, other than to support the teacher’s union? > [@](#): > > Birth. Now, you find me a logical, scientific reason to change my mind on that. Where to begin? Does a premature baby not achieve life until it has exited the womb? What if the mother dies during delivery? What is the justification of delivering the “thing” at that point? According to you, it isn’t alive yet because it hasn’t been born and the mother cannot deliver, so there’s no more reason to deliver than to remove the mother’s tonsils. There’s also the case of miscarriage. Technically, according to your argument, a miscarried fetus that is evacuated from the womb should be considered alive because it exited the womb and the mother’s body. It can’t be dead before it left the womb because it never was alive. So if being outside the mother’s body is the sole criterion for establishing life, it must be alive. And why do scumbags like Scott Peterson get convicted of double murder for killing pregnant women? Shouldn’t the law protect him from being charged with “murdering” an unborn mass of cells? Shouldn’t it also be legal to beat a pregnant woman to point of miscarriage? Battery charges obviously would apply, but nothing should be done, according to your argument, involving the pregnancy. You can honestly find logic in your argument? > [@](#): > > Wanna bet? Any woman who decides she wants to abort doesn’t have to justify it by telling you or anyone else what her beliefs are, because what she wants trumps the fetus since she is an already living, breathing, obviously alive human being. You didn’t address my point, you just shouted “choice” as though that is the real trump card here. > [@](#): > > Say what? Are you whining because men don’t get to force women to remain pregnant? Again, you just shout out some drivel claiming that a woman carrying a baby is somehow being forced to do so by men. The tyranny involved here is not men forcing women to give birth, it’s women arbitrarily ending lives as a matter of convenience. > [@spooje](#): > > Well, you started an abortion thread thinly veiled as a discussion on poltical discourse. Yes, you caught me, it was all a sinister plan to discuss abortion. Your logic is about as solid as curlcoat’s. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, the two issues are completely different. One is about a woman dealing with an unwanted growth, the other is about racism and the conservative desire to promote ignorance by destroying the public school system. Thus far the argument in favor of abortion as a matter of choice has been choice for the sake of choice (so long as you agree with it), sexism, racism, and the idiocy of all who oppose it. In other words, you can’t plausibly justify abortion in any meaningful way and must resort to name-calling and buzzwords. And thus this thread has come full circle. The thread was about people who can’t rationally defend their beliefs and became one giant shouting match with “pro-choice” advocates doing just that. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/45 "2011-07-05T14:59:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As a liberal I will describe how I have seen this cross fertilization of stupidity occur on the conservative side. > > I have a friend who has been a one issue voter for decades. He is against abortion and he will vote for whoever is more against abortion. This is always the conservative/Republican candidate. So he ends up listening to their position on abortion but also ends up hearing their position on things like global warming the estate tax. > > So now he has adopted positions on global warming and the estate tax by osmosis. He can’t defend or back up any of his positions but he knows that the baby killers are concerned about global warming and God’s candidate thinks global warming is a hoax being perpetrated by big money climatological research (boggle) and that the estate tax is going to be levied against his mother’s $100,000 estate. I’ll venture to guess that this guy brings up opinions that he can’t explain and expects you to adopt them, right? Great example. ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/46 "2011-07-05T15:29:58Z")
I’d be curious to hear examples of how you do not fall behind a rigid party line as you did claim to only “tend to agree” with conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/47 "2011-07-05T15:56:16Z")
> [@Saganist](#): > > I’d be curious to hear examples of how you do not fall behind a rigid party line as you did claim to only “tend to agree” with conservatives. I don’t really see how that’s germane. And short of going line-by-line through the Republican Party platform, I’m not sure how to achieve it. You seem to be guilty, as most people are (including myself at times) of believing that conservative = republican and liberal = democrat. When I say that I tend to agree with conservatives, I’m not speaking of “conservatives” as some monolithic force, but as individuals. For example, I had some problems with George Bush’s ideas on illegal immigration, Ron Paul’s views on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Rudy Giuliani’s pro-choice position, etc. Again, I’m not sure what this has to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/48 "2011-07-05T16:00:12Z")
Poorly disguised pro abortion rant. Pffft. Got anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/49 "2011-07-05T16:16:06Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Poorly disguised pro abortion rant. > > Pffft. > > Got anything else? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/50 "2011-07-05T16:35:07Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > I don’t really see how that’s germane. And short of going line-by-line through the Republican Party platform, I’m not sure how to achieve it. You seem to be guilty, as most people are (including myself at times) of believing that conservative = republican and liberal = democrat. > > When I say that I tend to agree with conservatives, I’m not speaking of “conservatives” as some monolithic force, but as individuals. For example, I had some problems with George Bush’s ideas on illegal immigration, Ron Paul’s views on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Rudy Giuliani’s pro-choice position, etc. > > Again, I’m not sure what this has to do with anything. Mostly, as I said, I am just curious. It isn’t relevant necessarily that you _must_ disagree with the party line (used metaphorically, not as = Republican) somewhere. I just thought it was interesting that you wanted to to call out the distinction between repeating talking points and forming your own opinions and then seemingly flat-out say that it’s not possible to logically form a different opinion different than your own on abortion and that everyone must just be repeating liberal talking points. I know it isn’t logically contradictory, but I see some inconsistency in saying both that it’s good to form your own opinions but that it’s not possible to form an opinion different from mine. If you also conveniently agreed with all typical conservative positions as being the "right"position, I’d say it would undermine your claims of being an independent thinker. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/51 "2011-07-05T16:44:43Z")
> [@Saganist](#): > > I know it isn’t logically contradictory, but I see some inconsistency in saying both that it’s good to form your own opinions but that it’s not possible to form an opinion different from mine. If you also conveniently agreed with all typical conservative positions as being the "right"position, I’d say it would undermine your claims of being an independent thinker. If you looked at the thread objectively, I think you’d see that quite the opposite is going on. I haven’t said that any position opposing mine is automatically illogical, but that there is no logical explanation given. The argument that abortion is not murder because a fetus is not life begs the question of when life begins. A flat answer of “birth” and then calling me an idiot is not a logical explanation of that view. Likewise, the concept that the “school choice” issue is not a matter of choice because Republicans are racist is not logical. It is good to form your own opinions, but it’s not good to use “if you don’t agree, you’re a ‘retarded fuckwit’” as the basis for those opinions. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/52 "2011-07-05T17:06:18Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > It is good to form your own opinions, but it’s not good to use “if you don’t agree, you’re a ‘retarded fuckwit’” as the basis for those opinions. Do you see that from the tolerant, diversity loving Dopers?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/53 "2011-07-05T17:18:36Z")
> [@FE3O4ENAIL](#): > > Do you see that from the tolerant, diversity loving Dopers?😉 Never! ---
**Author:** ![Saganist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Saganist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saganist)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/54 "2011-07-05T18:49:53Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > If you looked at the thread objectively, I think you’d see that quite the opposite is going on. I haven’t said that any position opposing mine is automatically illogical, but that there is no logical explanation given. The argument that abortion is not murder because a fetus is not life begs the question of when life begins. A flat answer of “birth” and then calling me an idiot is not a logical explanation of that view. You said this: > [@](#): > > I haven’t unilaterally decided that life begins at conception - it is the only logical conclusion. You can equally be accused of providing a flat answer and saying anyone who doesn’t agree is stupid (or illogical). > [@](#): > > It is good to form your own opinions, but it’s not good to use “if you don’t agree, you’re a ‘retarded fuckwit’” as the basis for those opinions. Agreed. But it does seem that you are slightly more inclined to dismiss what people who disagree with you say as contentless insults rather than actual well-formed opinions. And it’s a bit ironic, given the original point of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/55 "2011-07-05T19:04:09Z")
> [@Saganist](#): > > You said this: > > You can equally be accused of providing a flat answer and saying anyone who doesn’t agree is stupid (or illogical). > > Agreed. But it does seem that you are slightly more inclined to dismiss what people who disagree with you say as contentless insults rather than actual well-formed opinions. And it’s a bit ironic, given the original point of the thread. Actually, what I said was, “Try to approach this logically. When does life begin, if not at conception? At three months? Six? Eight? Birth? Third birthday? I haven’t unilaterally decided that life begins at conception - it is the only logical conclusion. Any other explanation is arbitrary…” In other words, I provided some kind of context for my conclusion. Those who disagree have provided airtight logic like calling me an idiot, a retard, and a fucktard (if you can find the “content” in those, more power to you). My “flat answer” posed the question of when life begins (and I even made it multiple choice!). “Birth. Now, you find me a logical, scientific reason to change my mind on that,” is not a well-formed opinion - it is a statement of belief with the burden of (dis-)proof being placed on me. _That_ is not a logical argument. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/56 "2011-07-05T19:21:49Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > Actually, what I said was, “Try to approach this logically. When does life begin, if not at conception? At three months? Six? Eight? Birth? Third birthday? I haven’t unilaterally decided that life begins at conception - it is the only logical conclusion. Any other explanation is arbitrary…” Except it’s _not_ the only logical conclusion, and it’s just as arbitrary as any other metric. I could easily make a case that it’s just as logical to conclude that life begins when there’s brain activity, or when it’s developed recognizably human features, or when it can survive outside the womb. Your blanket statement that your decision on when life begins is the only correct answer isn’t supported by anything other than “My post is my cite”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/57 "2011-07-05T19:27:18Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > Try to approach this logically. When does life begin, if not at conception? At three months? Six? Eight? Birth? Third birthday? I haven’t unilaterally decided that life begins at conception - it is the only logical conclusion. Any other explanation is arbitrary… Perhaps the problem is attempting to assign a fixed moment to something that is a gradual incremental process. Any point you pick (even conception) is going to feel arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/58 "2011-07-05T19:31:00Z")
Time to parse words: If life doesn’t begin at conception, then what is being conceived? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/59 "2011-07-05T19:34:54Z")
> [@Penderel](#): > > Time to parse words: If life doesn’t begin at conception, then what is being conceived? The map is not the territory. The fact that we choose certain words to describe a thing does not determine the nature of that thing. ---
**Author:** ![Penderel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Penderel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penderel)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409/60 "2011-07-05T20:11:22Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > The map is not the territory. The fact that we choose certain words to describe a thing does not determine the nature of that thing. So, then, there is no “life,” no “abortion,” etc.? And conception is not an arbitrary point at which to define life - there is nothing there before conception (or, if you want to call it “Dave,” go ahead). Once the sperm penetrates the egg _something_ is Daved - there is nothing before that, but something new after. Take it into a broader context - If you’re asking, “When did this thing come into existence?” the answer is, 'When it was created." That’s pretty tough to dispute, and is hardly arbitrary. To say, “At some point after it was created but was later determined to be in existence,” is awfully shaky. The idea that life begins at some point after conception isn’t formulated to answer the question of when life begins, but to answer that question in such a way that abortion is justified as not being the taking of life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chicken-or-egg/587409.md?page=4)