# Chickenhawks at the SDMB **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 19, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076 "2004-10-19T18:14:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/61 "2004-10-20T02:48:50Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Given how IMO _voluntary_ fire departments are deader than disco, a more appropriate analogy would be folks who want fires put out but refuse to pay the taxes needed to keep the fire department running. Where I’m from the vols are all we have. How about nobody’s allowed to have any opinions whatsoever unless they have personal experience of the thing they have an opinion about? That would cut way down on the number of arguments people got into. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/62 "2004-10-20T03:14:49Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Hiring freeze right now, increasing revenue from last year by over 8% isn’t enough, so we have to cut all the little things possible. However come next summer, if you don’t mind gamma radiation and a commute to Illinois…maybe. What energy gammas? N-16, or Co-60? And if I can get a job I can move… nothing keeping me here. Cool… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/63 "2004-10-20T03:17:20Z")
> [@racinchikki](#): > > How about nobody’s allowed to have any opinions whatsoever unless they have personal experience of the thing they have an opinion about? That would cut way down on the number of arguments people got into. [An example of such ‘expert’ leadership:](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/20/international/20war.html?pagewanted=4&ei=5094&en=2e5915215b02806a&hp&ex=1098244800&partner=homepage) > [@](#): > > Flawed intelligence led to other units’ being caught by surprise, too. In Samawa, the Army’s Third Squadron, Seventh Cavalry Regiment had been told, based on intelligence reports, to be prepared to conduct a parade to show solidarity with the inhabitants. > > Sgt. First Class Anthony Broadhead, who led a group of Bradley fighting vehicles and M-1 tanks into the city, was standing in the hatch of his tank and waving when the Iraqis responded by shooting. A fierce firefight between the soldiers and the paramilitary forces broke I wonder how long our country would have lasted if we held our leaders to deciding only on matters with which they had personal experience. We probably wouldn’t even been able to _form_ a nation with that restriction. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/64 "2004-10-20T03:47:40Z")
Here’s the thing about war: sometimes it’s fought for reasons less grand than “defense of liberty” – even less noble than “hey, that’s my oil!” Sometimes, wars are fought for reasons of _policy_. Policy, like “the U.S. needs to assert dominance in the Middle East,” or “we must contain Communism in Southeast Asia.” Such policies may, in fact, provide good reasons to make war, but they will always be arguable reasons. While moderates may choose their battles (heh), doves tend to oppose policy-based war, preferring to reserve military action as retaliation for obvious wrongdoing. Hawks, on the other hand, will support such wars – because they approve of war as a policy tool. It’s a corollary that they think that every young American ought to be willing to serve American ends in that way. That’s the sort of war that even moderates can oppose if it’s poorly thought out. If a given hawk holds that attitude AND has a history of avoiding combat himself, even a moderate might be tempted to call attention to the contradiction, and a pissed-off dove will call it hypocrisy, and call the hawk a chicken. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/65 "2004-10-20T03:52:30Z")
If belligerent military types are called ‘Hawks’. If pro-war civilians are called ‘Chickenhawks’. Should anti-war civilians be called ‘Chickens’? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/66 "2004-10-20T05:39:53Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > If we call pro-war civilians _chickenhawks_, should we call pro-peace military _hawkchikens_? I prefer “Battledoves”. They’re fairly common around here. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/67 "2004-10-20T05:46:22Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > NI was a Soviet citizen who dodged the Soviet draft for Afghanistan back in the 1980s. Are you aware of this, and if so do you still classify his desire not to serve in the Soviet Army trieg to conquer Afghanistan the same way? He’s at the back of the crowd, safe and secure, cheering for the troops to march into Baghdad and overthrow that mean ol’ Saddam for no justifiable reason whatsoever. Sounds like “chickenhawk” to me. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/68 "2004-10-20T05:48:00Z")
Civilian who are pro-war are **not** called _chickenhawks._ It’s those who advocate war but aren’t willing to fight in that war when the opportunity presents itself. **Chicken** is common slang for \*coward. \* The word _hawk_ designates one who supports a war. Frankly, I see nothing wrong with having the good sense to admit to your fears – especially in a war that doesn’t make sense. But to _support_ that war and still act in a cowardly manner is hypocritical. If you are anti-war, you are designated a _dove_ – which is the sign of peace. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/69 "2004-10-20T10:01:08Z")
Instead of a dove, some might call you merely a chicken. Do you see why I prefer to avoid stupid labels like this? Someone who opposes war in general is a pacifist. While there may be a sound moral or religious basis for a person’s pacifism, I personally believe that this is a terribly naive stance given the realities of the world situation. Pacifism is accomodated through things like conscientious objection to conscription, which is an honorable way to avoid military service. For everyone else, war should be decided on the merits of that particular war. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/70 "2004-10-20T10:07:17Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > He’s at the back of the crowd, safe and secure, cheering for the troops to march into Baghdad and overthrow that mean ol’ Saddam for no justifiable reason whatsoever. Sounds like “chickenhawk” to me. Well, I’m there too. Although I think there were plenty of reasons to get rid of Saddam. I’ll just assume you’re not willing to call me a chickenhawk, given my humble yet honorable service. So, am I permitted to advocate war, while **NI** isn’t, somehow? And if so, why is that right, in a democracy? I just think, **rjung** , that you use whatever cudgel is handy to smack at your perceived enemies. Not terribly nice, in my book, and hardly consistent. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/71 "2004-10-20T11:41:08Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Well, I’m there too. Although I think there were plenty of reasons to get rid of Saddam. I think there are plenty of reasons to get rid of Bush. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/72 "2004-10-20T11:41:17Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Well, I’m there too. Although I think there were plenty of reasons to get rid of Saddam. I think there are plenty of reasons to get rid of Bush. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/73 "2004-10-20T13:17:19Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I think there are plenty of reasons to get rid of Bush. 😛 That makes you a Barn Owl. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/74 "2004-10-20T13:19:15Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > That makes you a Barn Owl. Is this some form of joke? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/75 "2004-10-20T13:22:29Z")
You didn’t get it? We’re assigning birds to almost every political position, and barn owl is as arbitrary as the rest. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/76 "2004-10-20T13:27:03Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You didn’t get it? We’re assigning birds to almost every political position, and barn owl is as arbitrary as the rest. Ah gotcha. I guess I’ll call \*_NK_ a cocoo bird then. \ ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/77 "2004-10-20T13:30:43Z")
wtf ok ok, I’m off to get breakfast and coffee. That should read… I guess I’ll call **NI** a cocoo bird then. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/78 "2004-10-20T13:49:09Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Your source was the BBC. In the States, the draft ended the same month as the war and protests continued as long as we continued to engage, especially with the bombing of North Vietnam during the peace talks. My cite referred also to the US anti-war movement: > [@](#): > > In 1968 **US** students burnt their draft cards and over 600,000 were involved in a march **on Washington** in November 1969. > > Student demonstrators were joined by other disaffected groups - including the working class and war veterans. > > The anti-war movement declined after\*\* President Nixon\*\* suspended the draft and began to withdraw **US** troops in 1971. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/79 "2004-10-20T13:55:11Z")
What about people who are generally pacifists, and who opposed the invasion of Iraq, but wouldn’t be permitted to join the military even if they tried (for medical reasons or whatever)? Are we allowed to have opinions? And if so, what bird are we? ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076/80 "2004-10-20T14:00:19Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > What about people who are generally pacifists, and who opposed the invasion of Iraq, but wouldn’t be permitted to join the military even if they tried (for medical reasons or whatever)? > > Are we allowed to have opinions? And if so, what bird are we? I dub thee Carolina Wren. With Yellow Jasmine in your hair. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chickenhawks-at-the-sdmb/270076.md?page=5)