# Chief Pedant, come on down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363 "2015-10-11T22:09:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/221 "2015-10-13T05:22:49Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > **BrightNShiny** is your only debating style just shouting down anyone that doesn’t agree with you? If so, we aren’t going to get very far here because I don’t support that tactic on any subject. > > However, I don’t think that you are truly that dumb. > > We have a few facts in firm evidence: > > 1. Black populations have lower test scores and educational achievement rates not just in Mississippi, not just in the U.S. but everywhere in the world that it has been measured. That needs a sound explanation but the effect is unusually strong. > > 2. Can you explain it by socio-economic corrections to the data? - Surprisingly no. Even wealthy blacks still score lower than much more disadvantaged cohorts in other populations. Hey, dumbfuck, I (and other posters) have already dealt with this issue in this thread. Go fucking read the thread before you accuse anyone of not giving an explanation. Moron. > [@](#): > > 1. Is there such a thing as race? Not in the antiquated sense but a better term is populations and those do exist. Those are much smaller but many of them do show genetic distinctions between other groups. Rather recently, researchers have found a small but sharp genetic break between sub-saharan Africans and all other groups. Pony up a cite. But if your cite is to that stupid Nicholas Wade book, we’ve already dealt with this numerous times on this board. > [@](#): > > Europeans and Asians hybridized with Neanderthals while sub-saharan Africans have little to no Neanderthal contribution. There is another recently discovered human species called the Desmovians that likely hybridized with other homo sapiens especially in Asia but that is still cutting edge research. So? What does this have to do with racial intelligence claims the racists are making? > [@](#): > > 1. Did that hybridization cause a fundamental shift in human evolution? Nobody knows exactly because it is still a hotbed of research but it is almost inevitable that it had some effect on every non sub-Saharan African population. No, it’s not almost inevitable. It’s still quite unclear whether this effect is enough to distinguish genetically population groups along social constructs of race. And its even more unclear how genetics relates to intelligence. We know it relates somehow, but we’re not even close to being able to point to socially constructed races, tying that to genetics and then tying the genetics to intelligence. > [@](#): > > It may help explain how certain populations changed their adaptions to certain environments and their phenotype so rapidly. A scant tens of thousands of years is supposed to be the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms yet it supposedly caused lanky Africans to turn into everything from the Chinese to Nordic populations to Eskimos according the genetic equality proponents. It is obvious that something is missing with that idea and smart people are making good progress at figuring out what that is. Already dealt with by me and others in this thread, you moron. This is what racist assholes like you do. You want to argue some other point instead of the point at hand. Because arguing against a strawman lets you pretend that your actually doing science. > [@](#): > > 1. Does that mean that all black people are inferior? - No, of course not on many levels. Nobody disputes that the intellectual curves for certain skills overlap and the tails of the curve go just as far for all populations. There are plenty of sub-Saharan Africans that could blow both of us away on any test. They may have some enhanced abilities over others as well. I don’t think it is some fluke that poor American blacks invented almost all modern music ranging from Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll and Hip-Hop in rapid succession as soon as they were free enough to do it. That is at least as impressive as generating a ton of Nobel prizes and even more influential but they simply knew how to when other people didn’t. This is just racist claptrap masquerading as science. > [@](#): > > 1. Is any of this tied to genetics? - Maybe for some of it but that is very hard to prove and it isn’t a truly fair standard for this argument at this time. It is extremely difficult to link specific genes to even simple biological expressions and effectively impossible for complex behaviors. That doesn’t mean the hypothesis is wrong but I don’t think the standard needs to be higher than correlation right now because that is the standard used for most other complex systems. Hey, dipshit. The problem is that we aren’t finding correlations between genes and social constructs of race, and that’s the basis of this whole argument. > [@](#): > > What I don’t find tasteful is your virtual jumping up and down like a maniac and calling everyone a ‘racist’ even when they seem to agree with you on many parts. There is room for honest conversation, education and debate on this subject. I don’t give a rats ass what you think is distasteful. I’ve given plenty of polite arguments in GD. This is the pit, and if I want to call out racists for their racism, I’m going to do it. And listen up, you piece of shit. Yours is a standard tactic used by racists and their defenders everywhere. You’re not concerned about the racists or their racism, your only concerned that people are being mean to racists. When you decide to stop defending racists, I’ll stop insulting you. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/222 "2015-10-13T05:28:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Telling other posters to fuck themselves is a violation of board rules. Please do not do this again. > > No warning issued. > [/Moderating] Sure. They’ve changed the pit rules numerous times since I first joined, and I forget sometimes what’s allowed and what isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/223 "2015-10-13T05:32:08Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I can’t say what the correct answer is but I do know that no one has it yet. Hysterical. This is only what I’ve been saying since the beginning of the thread. That we don’t know enough yet to make these claims. What a dipshit you are. > [@](#): > > Something has gone wrong in this thread. We are going to have to call animal control or social services on **BrightNShiny** has gone completely aggressive. The same thing has spread to **Lefty** who decided to bring my family into this quite inappropriately (and extremely creepy). Can’t anyone have a civil discussion on this topic? Oh, fucko off. When you start calling out the racists on their incivility, I’ll believe that you actually care about having a civil discussion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/224 "2015-10-13T05:53:32Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > A scant tens of thousands of years is supposed to be the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms yet it supposedly caused lanky Africans to turn into everything from the Chinese to Nordic populations to Eskimos according the genetic equality proponents. You really have no fucking clue how human evolution works, do you? > [@](#): > > They may have some enhanced abilities over others as well. I don’t think it is some fluke that poor American blacks invented almost all modern music ranging from Jazz, Blues, Rock and Roll and Hip-Hop in rapid succession as soon as they were free enough to do it. Oh, they may be dumb at book learning, but lawdy, they sure can play (and run), right, Massah? Must be that jungle rhythm in their genes. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/225 "2015-10-13T05:54:27Z")
I’ve got one more point here to make. Take something like epicanthic folds. Those appear all over the map (East Asians, Central Asians, Berbers, San, etc.). If there are genetic markers for greater intelligence (and we may eventually find them), why isn’t it possible for them to appear all over the map as well (not in the same distribution as folds, but in some other distribution)? Given the data we currently have, it’s certainly still plausible. For all I know, there’s some group or many groups of Sub-Saharan Africans carrying these superior intelligence genes. But the racists never even entertain that possibility. They come in with an a-priori conclusion that this racial group or that racial group has lower genetic intelligence (however that is defined) and then they use a bunch of junk science (and history and economics and sociology) to pretend to back up that viewpoint. It’s racist bullshit and if you’re going to defend them, then I’m going to call you a racist. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/226 "2015-10-13T06:12:16Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I can’t say how any of that will influence these arguments in the future but they have already completely refuted the genetic equality thesis. What “genetic equality” thesis? Who the fuck has been making the claim that all genes are “equal,” however you want to define “equal?” The only people in this thread bringing up this argument are racists who want to argue against a strawman. You know, I should have been much harsher to you in my replies. You are a duck fuck of the highest order. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/227 "2015-10-13T07:01:54Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > That study, as far as I can tell, … does not disprove, e.g., the one-drop hypothesis, where having any significant black ancestry drops your IQ by a standard deviation. Yes it does. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/228 "2015-10-13T08:14:38Z")
As usual these arguments start from false information > [@Shagnasty](#): > > We have a few facts in firm evidence: > > 1. Black populations have lower test scores and educational achievement rates not just in Mississippi, not just in the U.S. but everywhere in the world that it has been measured. That needs a sound explanation but the effect is unusually strong. Except this is not a fact of firm evidence, it is an american factoid that is often repeated by the persons with a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority, but in fact in the european cases this does not exist at all. Just in the united kingdom case from the anglosphere the Nigerian origin population as an example and a large one scores as good or better than the native white population. So the long argument starts off with the false assertion. It renders it all without very strong meaning, since we know from the start it has not a good basis. but doubtless he has learned much wisdom from the surrogate that raised him to allow him to speak without prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/229 "2015-10-13T08:43:42Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > As usual these arguments start from false information > > Except this is not a fact of firm evidence, it is an american factoid that is often repeated by the persons with a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority, but in fact in the european cases this does not exist at all. Just in the united kingdom case from the anglosphere the Nigerian origin population as an example and a large one scores as good or better than the native white population. > > So the long argument starts off with the false assertion. It renders it all without very strong meaning, since we know from the start it has not a good basis. > but doubtless he has learned much wisdom from the surrogate that raised him to allow him to speak without prejudice. Hi, **Ramira** , you’ve given a very polite response, yet again, just like **GIGObuster** and **iiandyiiii** have given numerous polite responses. I’m sure everyone will be along shortly to complement you on your politeness and attempt to actually engage with you on your arguments. Or, maybe they’ll just run in to whine about how I’m being mean to racists. Let’s see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/230 "2015-10-13T08:47:52Z")
no I am sure it will all be ignored in favor of the strawmen and gross misinformations by persons who prefer some archaic beliefs for the social or the political reasons. or because they were raised by the mammies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/231 "2015-10-13T09:07:18Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > That study, as far as I can tell, disproves the assertion that intelligence is linked to the same genetic markers as blood type and skin color within the tested subset of the African-American population. It does not disprove, e.g., the one-drop hypothesis, where having any significant black ancestry drops your IQ by a standard deviation. No, it disproves/refutes the assertion that intelligence is linked to the genetic markers (that they used at least) for African ancestry. And they actually controlled for skin color, rather than using it as a marker of ancestry. > [@](#): > > Would you like to? I make no assertion on the issue. I just point out the assertions that are made with no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/232 "2015-10-13T09:50:02Z")
I am sorry I missed you had also raised this gigo > [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are still ignoring a lot of recent research, a lot of those points still come as having problems once we look at what has been found. > . > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Made a mistake with the link, here is the correct one: > > [The IQ Gap is No Longer a Black and White Issue, by Chanda Chisala - The Unz Review](http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/) of course these datas will be passed in silence in favor of the american one drop analysis rule. I do not doubt the same person will assert the same non facts as facts one year from now, as has been the pattern here for ten years. but then the regards person can come and say there is no refutation and it is only politics… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/233 "2015-10-13T10:01:35Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Something has gone wrong in this thread. We are going to have to call animal control or social services on **BrightNShiny** has gone completely aggressive. The same thing has spread to **Lefty** who decided to bring my family into this quite inappropriately (and extremely creepy). Can’t anyone have a civil discussion on this topic? Given the PM you just sent me threatening to take me to the authorities if I mention your mom again–something I did only because it was so weird and offputting when you yourself did it–you might want to shut the fuck up about your family here. Just a thought, yo. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/234 "2015-10-13T10:08:27Z")
Wait, he threatened to take you to the police? Or the Mods? Just for _mentioning_ his Mom in a completely anonymous and non-prurient way? Jeez, good thing I didn’t reply to him the way I did to **FX** … ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/235 "2015-10-13T10:19:50Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > No, I didn’t post a single thing that was factually untrue. . what a strange thing to write. The very first point is factually untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/236 "2015-10-13T10:27:47Z")
for this person is it not a correct memory he also claims to have been raised by a black mammy, using even this term that echoes of the era of an american apartheid… ? it is strange the echoes of the history. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/237 "2015-10-13T10:32:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Wait, he threatened to take you to the police? Or the Mods? Yeah, I realized that was unclear. The “administration,” not the police. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/238 "2015-10-13T10:37:18Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > for this person is it not a correct memory he also claims to have been raised by a black mammy, That’s him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/239 "2015-10-13T11:18:36Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > 1. Black populations have lower test scores and educational achievement rates not just in Mississippi, not just in the U.S. but everywhere in the world that it has been measured. That needs a sound explanation but the effect is unusually strong. There’s been a few decades of testing in the US, and little testing elsewhere (including pretty much no decent testing through much of Africa). Further, there are all kinds of outliers – such as the fact that Nigerian Americans are among the most educated Americans of all. Compared to the sweep of history, and the length and breadth of discrimination and oppression, this is very, very little. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/240 "2015-10-13T11:47:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it disproves/refutes the assertion that intelligence is linked to the genetic markers (that they used at least) for African ancestry. And they actually controlled for skin color, rather than using it as a marker of ancestry. No they didn’t. They proved that on a sliding scale of 20% European to 80% African to 60% European to 40% African, there wasn’t a notable correlation between ancestry percentage and test results. They said nothing about 100%/0%, or any of the other 0%/0% results. This study is evidence against one particular theory of gene distribution and intelligence. On the other hand, as far as I know, no one’s arguing for a linear ordering of intelligence genes, of which European ancestors have all of them and African ancestors have none. If they were, this would be an excellent study to point such people at. > [@](#): > > I make no assertion on the issue. I just point out the assertions that are made with no evidence. [Here you go.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=13)