# Chief Pedant, come on down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363 "2015-10-11T22:09:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/21 "2015-10-12T01:02:29Z")
Short version … yes **Ethilrist** , years. The same basic schtick over and over again, finding new people to engage with, and usually with the same strawman arguments pretty much ignoring all arguments actually made. It’s boring. And whether or not the precise argument he makes each time is explicitly racist or not, the apparent obsession with making the same argument over and over again is hard to explain without evoking racist perspectives. Bottom line for me, FWIW, is that I couldn’t give a shit if there is some element of genetic predisposition to population wide means and Sds and various axes of intelligence (I am open to the possibility that there is). The first order of business would remain addressing the unequitable complex social and cultural factors that likely _swamp everything else_ (and such is much more than SES level) so that everyone is able to more closely reach whatever their potential is. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/22 "2015-10-12T01:12:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No one disagrees that typical hair texture is different in Africa from Europe, they should as there is not one “typical” hair texture in Africa. > [@](#): > > and that this is a phenotypical expression of a genotypic variation. of course, and the variations are multiple within the africans. > [@](#): > > Similarly, Africans are most susceptible to sickle cell anemia, False. Here we see again the half -knowledge and “popular (mis) understanding” of the genetics that leads to false conclusions. the African populations which have lived long in the high malaria zones are. As are certain non african populations (with different expressions) which had long endemic exposure to the malaria. the african populations - yes in the sub-saharan africa - that did not have this, are not “most susceptible” Not blacks, not africans, some sub-sets of them. > [@](#): > > Genetics. yes and the genetics that are more complicated and not what you think they are. It is simplistic and under-information, and among some an idelogical tendency that lead to agreement with the pedant. > [@](#): > > One can quibble whether the underlying genetic variation is, on average, very tiny, or just tiny, but clearly there are phenotypical differences that arise from genes and are correlated with ethnicities. Sometimes with the ethnicities as cultural defines them sometimes not. the genetic population group is not a great synonym to the western races idea. \*Yet when **Mr. Pedant** suggests that there may be a genetic reason why Kenya tends to produce excellent runners, he’s accused of racism. \* :smack: > [@](#): > > Call it one of my fetishes, but I’ve always favored describing reality objectively, rather than kowtowing to political correctness. it is political correctness that forbids describing an idea by its common noun, that meets precisely the dictionary definition _" a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority"_ describing reality objectively of course means not being the politically correct and avoiding a word because it has the political meaning in the USA… to avoid the word racist for things that meet the dictionary definition, it is political correctness. it is not political correctness that discards the ideas of the pedant as non scientific and based on more the north american presuppsitions of popular genetics than the science and data (as you demonstrate ironcially in making declarations that are not in fact supported by the science and based on the unscientific ideas). > [@Bricker](#): > > This is where ideology gets in the way of true scientific objective analysis. Yes, the ideological tendency of the American cultural conservative that is resisting for decade after decade the clear lessons of the actual genetic sciences that say their traditional ideas of race have no good foundation at all. If there is a phenotypical expression of a genotypic variation that causes hair to be reliably different, then we can certainly acknowledge that it’s possible another phenotypical expression of a genotypic variation might cause better running ability. It’s not a case of the laws of biology or the physical constraints of the universe being violated, after all. And the political correctness that is objecting to a plain word being used because this political tendency gets its feeling hurts when factual expressions that meet this dictionary definition are blandly labeled. Ironical of course you meant in ignorance something else, but this is the ideological blindness. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/23 "2015-10-12T01:13:38Z")
My favorite piece of **Chief Pedant** rhetoric is his fully supporting AA for black people (and presumably other low scoring minorities) because left to the merit rewarding free market they wouldn’t be represented at all, nor will they ever be. In a pluralistic society it’s important to include everyone, yada yada social harmony, so AA must stay even if it crowds out capable Asians, Jews, whites, etc. I don’t know if he really believes that or he just uses it to make liberals mad, but it’s wonderfully crafted. Golf claps all around. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/24 "2015-10-12T01:15:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. So just point out that his claim requires reliable data, and he doesn’t have it. They have, for years and years. he retreats to hand waving and gross misuse of statistical phrases and concepts so as to throw up the smoke screen and of course the continued reasseration of facts shown to be false like the population isolation time frames of the sub saharan populations. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/25 "2015-10-12T01:22:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what? > > Does that history alter the biological question in some way? it is not obvious but in the threads he baldly asserts that any testing difference has to be genetic (although by ad hoc reasoning that changes in context) and waives away any non-biological factor. It is the a priori argument. it is wrong however to dismiss the genetic difference in intelligence, it is of course there. The question is not that, but the coherence, even the logical basis, of the analysis for the large and genetically very diverse popualtions that are labeled ‘black.’ Taking the heterogenous and not coherent populatoins and making the broad assertions, this is politics, it is not science. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/26 "2015-10-12T01:46:56Z")
I always read his name as **Chief Pendant**. Then I scroll past whatever junk he’s peddling since ain’t nobody got time for that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/27 "2015-10-12T01:55:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My problem with your post is this sentence: _It doesn’t matter what data someone has – it’s still racist to say that black people are, on average, inferior genetically in intelligence._ BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT RACIST MEANS, GODDAMMIT! Look, what you’re saying isn’t that he’s not racist, it’s that racists might theoretically be right. Whether he’s right or wrong, claiming that one race is inferior to another is what it means to be a racist. In theory, it’s possible that martians working for the Cuban mob shot JFK. Allowing that remote possibility doesn’t mean it’s wrong to call someone making that claim a conspiracy theorist; it just allows that conspiracy theorists might be right. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/28 "2015-10-12T02:05:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > But can he paragraph? You have wounded me sirrah, with your stunning riposte. Hell yes he can “paragraph”. Entirely too much “paragraph”. Is this a quantity equates quality calculation? If so, I must not-so-humbly disagree with your assessment baseline. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/29 "2015-10-12T02:08:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. So just point out that his claim requires reliable data, and he doesn’t have it. As others have pointed out, this has been done ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/30 "2015-10-12T02:13:27Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > You have wounded me sirrah, with your stunning riposte. > > Hell yes he can “paragraph”. Entirely too much “paragraph”. Is this a quantity equates quality calculation? If so, I must not-so-humbly disagree with your assessment baseline. Well, the target of your ire may or may not be engaged in “racist pedantry”; however, your rather odd method of, let’s call it writing in English leaves a lot to be desired. You’re evidently aware of both the space key and the return/enter key, but you do not seem to be aware that they are not interchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/31 "2015-10-12T02:35:48Z")
I find myself able to live with your disapproval. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/32 "2015-10-12T03:06:07Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > But can he paragraph? [paragraph](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paragraph): a part of a piece of writing that usually deals with one subject, that begins on a new line, and that is made up of one or more sentences > [@ddsun](#): > > Possibly. _[This thread]_ Wasn’t really a huge investment in time or energy. > > And I think _[referring to the Pitting of **Chief Pedant**]_ it’s earned. > > Dude\* [**Chief Pedant**]\* is slick like a politician. Dances with his words. Still a racist. * * * Each paragraph contains its own subject and is comprised of one or more sentences. Grammar nazi fail in a fail pit is fail. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/33 "2015-10-12T03:36:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Look, what you’re saying isn’t that he’s not racist, it’s that racists might theoretically be right. Whether he’s right or wrong, claiming that one race is inferior to another is what it means to be a racist. Let’s say that he’s right, and it turns out that there is a genetic component to intelligence and that is may be more prevalent in Race A than Race B, would that by “racist”? If so, you’d be calling Nature racist. And that doesn’t make any sense. The existence of racial differences doesn’t equate to people pointing them out being racism. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/34 "2015-10-12T03:36:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT RACIST MEANS, GODDAMMIT! > > Look, what you’re saying isn’t that he’s not racist, it’s that racists might theoretically be right. Whether he’s right or wrong, claiming that one race is inferior to another is what it means to be a racist. I’m not so sure about that. If I were to say that East Asians are generally inferior to Caucasians and Blacks at growing beards, would that be racist? I think that in order be a racist, you need to harbor some negative emotions towards people of given race, or you need to judge someone based on their race alone, rather then their personal characteristics. “Racist” has a negative connotation to it such that it can’t just apply to someone who is stating facts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/35 "2015-10-12T03:44:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not so sure about that. If I were to say that East Asians are generally inferior to Caucasians and Blacks at growing beards, would that be racist? > > I think that in order be a racist, you need to harbor some negative emotions towards people of given race, or you need to judge someone based on their race alone, rather then their personal characteristics. > > “Racist” has a negative connotation to it such that it can’t just apply to someone who is stating facts. Beards and sprinting ability aren’t intelligence. Intelligence really is different, just like greediness or trustworthiness. It doesn’t matter if someone thinks they have good data that Jews are actually greedier than others – it’s still bigoted to say “Jews are inherently greedier due to genetics”. It doesn’t matter if someone thinks they have good data that black people are less intelligent – it’s still racist, in my mind, to say “black people are inherently inferior in intelligence due to genetics”. I don’t see how greediness for Jews is different than intelligence for black people. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/36 "2015-10-12T03:45:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That doesn’t change anything, in my opinion – there are certain assertions that are always racist, no matter who makes them, and no matter why. Someone might believe that they have data that suggests that Jews are inherently genetically more greedy and more untrustworthy on average… it’s still racist (or bigoted/anti-semitic or equivalent) to assert that Jews are inherently more greedy and more untrustworthy. In my view, it’s the same for intelligence. It doesn’t matter what data someone has – it’s still racist to say that black people are, on average, inferior genetically in intelligence. It doesn’t matter what kind of flowery language one dresses this up in. This argument is based on a belief that intelligence is a matter of character, with NO basis in genetics. Is that position something you really want to try to defend? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/37 "2015-10-12T03:46:16Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Perhaps I’m a masochist for doing so, _but I will defend **Mr. Pedant** _. > > No one disagrees that typical hair texture is different in Africa from Europe, and that this is a phenotypical expression of a genotypic variation. Similarly, Africans are most susceptible to sickle cell anemia, while Caucasians are more susceptible to certain esophogeal disorders. Genetics. One can quibble whether the underlying genetic variation is, on average, very tiny, or just tiny, but clearly there are phenotypical differences that arise from genes and are correlated with ethnicities. > > \*Yet when **Mr. Pedant** suggests that there may be a genetic reason why Kenya tends to produce excellent runners, he’s accused of racism. \* :smack: > > I don’t find the topic interesting, but this Board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance. Call it one of my fetishes, but I’ve always favored describing reality objectively, rather than kowtowing to political correctness. > > Go ahead and ask the Mod to add my name to the thread title. :rolleyes: I know many Dopers find me much more annoying than **Chief Pedant**. Hey, dumb fuck. Sickle cell is not limited to Africans. And if you could bother yourself to take thirty seconds and read the Wiki article on sickle cell, you would know that. Maybe you can skip your next Klan rally and read it. And that is not the extent of the claims that **Pedant**. You’re a racist asshole defending another racist asshole. And you’re an ignorant motherfucker lecturing people about topics you don’t understand. Go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/38 "2015-10-12T03:47:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let’s say that he’s right, and it turns out that there is a genetic component to intelligence and that is may be more prevalent in Race A than Race B, would that by “racist”? If so, you’d be calling Nature racist. And that doesn’t make any sense. The existence of racial differences doesn’t equate to people pointing them out being racism. I know we’ve had this discussion before… how do you make the distinction? What if it’s a Nazi saying Jews are inherently greedier? A hooded KKK’er saying blacks are dumber? A researcher, who may or may not have been involved with white supremacist groups in the past, saying black people are inherently more violent and less intelligent? A brain doctor who says that black people have inferior brains? In my mind, all these claims are inherently racist. It doesn’t matter who says it, and it doesn’t matter why they say it. _Every single racist thinks they have good data and good reason to be racist_, whether or not they admit to themselves that they are racist. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/39 "2015-10-12T03:48:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Beards and sprinting ability aren’t intelligence. Intelligence really is different, just like greediness or trustworthiness. It doesn’t matter if someone thinks they have good data that Jews are actually greedier than others – it’s still bigoted to say “Jews are inherently greedier due to genetics”. It doesn’t matter if someone thinks they have good data that black people are less intelligent – it’s still racist, in my mind, to say “black people are inherently inferior in intelligence due to genetics”. > > I don’t see how greediness for Jews is different than intelligence for black people. You’ve got to be fucking kidding. All you’re doing here is taking other negative stereotypes that have been assigned to people in the past and trying to say that, well, if it’s a negative perception of a group, it must necessarily be a similar stereotype with zero basis in nature. So, do you hold that intelligence has absolutely no component? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/40 "2015-10-12T03:51:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This argument is based on a belief that intelligence is a matter of character, with NO basis in genetics. Is that position something you really want to try to defend? That’s not what my argument is based on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=3)