# Chief Pedant, come on down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363 "2015-10-11T22:09:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/41 "2015-10-12T03:54:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I know we’ve had this discussion before… how do you make the distinction? What if it’s a Nazi saying Jews are inherently greedier? A hooded KKK’er saying blacks are dumber? A researcher, who may or may not have been involved with white supremacist groups in the past, saying black people are inherently more violent and less intelligent? A brain doctor who says that black people have inferior brains? > > In my mind, all these claims are inherently racist. It doesn’t matter who says it, and it doesn’t matter why they say it. _Every single racist thinks they have good data and good reason to be racist_, whether or not they admit to themselves that they are racist. If I say that Blacks tend to have kinkier hair than White people, is that a racist claim? If I say that they have more melanin in their skin, is that a racist claim? Just because they similar claims have been made by out-and-out racists in the past, it does not follow that everyone making a similar claim is racist. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/42 "2015-10-12T03:55:18Z")
Oh, this discussion about intelligence is such bullshit. We know there are a ton of non-genetic things which can affect intelligence, such as early socialization or environmental exposure or nutrition. We have no idea how all these things fit together and we have no idea how they interact with genetics. And on top of that, we don’t even have a scientific way to demarcate “races” with regards to genes. So, we’ve got a bunch of racist speculative bullshit with no scientific basis masquerading as science. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/43 "2015-10-12T03:56:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not what my argument is based on. It is when you equate claims about intelligence of a group with claims about the character of a group. Either that or you believe that character has a genetic component. So, which is it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/44 "2015-10-12T03:56:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’ve got to be fucking kidding. All you’re doing here is taking other negative stereotypes that have been assigned to people in the past and trying to say that, well, if it’s a negative perception of a group, it must necessarily be a similar stereotype with zero basis in nature. No. I’m pointing out that, for literally centuries, people have been claiming that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence. And for centuries, these people have been saying that they have good data and good reason to believe this. Also, for centuries, people have been saying that Jews are inherently greedier and less trustworthy. And for centuries, these people have been saying that they have good data and good reason to believe this. Why is now different? They still have no good data, for either claim. Are you saying that the people in the past who thought black people were inferior, and Jews were greedier, weren’t racist? if you’re not saying this, then what are you saying? What’s the difference between the people in past centuries who said black people were inferior in intelligence to the people in past centuries who said Jews were greedier? What’s the difference between the people in past centuries who said black people were inferior in intelligence to the people who make the same claim today? > [@](#): > > So, do you hold that intelligence has absolutely no component? If you mean no genetic component, then no, I’m not saying this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/45 "2015-10-12T03:59:29Z")
I say, without any reasonable doubt or reservation, that people in 1840 who asserted “black people are inherently inferior in intelligence” were making a racist assertion. Do you disagree, **magellan01**? I also assert that people who made the same claim in 1880, 1920, and 1960, were also making racist assertions. I don’t think it’s different today – if someone makes that same assertion, they’re still making a racist assertion. I don’t understand what changed, or when it changed. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/46 "2015-10-12T04:03:51Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Oh, this discussion about intelligence is such bullshit. We know there are a ton of non-genetic things which can affect intelligence, such as early socialization or environmental exposure or nutrition. We have no idea how all these things fit together and we have no idea how they interact with genetics. And on top of that, we don’t even have a scientific way to demarcate “races” with regards to genes. So, we’ve got a bunch of racist speculative bullshit with no scientific basis masquerading as science. Possibly. Hell, I personally think that’s probably the truth of it. But, still, nature may have resulted in intelligence having a genetic factor. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/47 "2015-10-12T04:07:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Possibly. Hell, I personally think that’s probably the truth of it. But, still, nature may have resulted in intelligence having a genetic factor. No, what I said is the truth of it. We simply don’t know enough about intelligence and genetics to make any definitive statements about how intelligence may break down along socially constructed “racial” lines. And anyone trying to pretend otherwise is a racist asshole. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/48 "2015-10-12T04:07:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I say, without any reasonable doubt or reservation, that people in 1840 who asserted “black people are inherently inferior in intelligence” were making a racist assertion. Do you disagree, **magellan01**? I also assert that people who made the same claim in 1880, 1920, and 1960, were also making racist assertions. > > I don’t think it’s different today – if someone makes that same assertion, they’re still making a racist assertion. I don’t understand what changed, or when it changed. There is now evidence. You just need to refer back to any of the threads to remind yourself of it. As I’ve said, I think the evidence is week, and that any small genetic advantage that may exist is likely a smaller factor than all the cultural ones you’ve cited in those threads. Still, there is evidence. Surely you are not of the mind that CP is making these claims with no more evidence than a racist in 1820. Right? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/49 "2015-10-12T04:09:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is now evidence. You just need to refer back to any of the threads to remind yourself of it. As I’ve said, I think the evidence is week, and that any small genetic advantage that may exist is likely a smaller factor than all the cultural ones you’ve cited in those threads. Still, there is evidence. > > Surely you are not of the mind that CP is making these claims with no more evidence than a racist in 1820. Right? No, there is no evidence, and if you read the threads that CP has been involved in (you bigoted fuck) you would know that his “evidence” gets shot down routinely. He’s just very persistent in posting the same crap over and over. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/50 "2015-10-12T04:09:30Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, what I said is the truth of it. We simply don’t know enough about intelligence and genetics to make any definitive statements about how intelligence may break down along socially constructed “racial” lines. And anyone trying to pretend otherwise is a racist asshole. If you want to argue, “b-b-but there are no races!!”, you’re really just avoiding the discussion in those threads. Really. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/51 "2015-10-12T04:10:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you want to argue, “b-b-but there are no races!!”, you’re really just avoiding the discussion in those threads. Really. Yes, there are socially constructed races, moron. But we’re talking about genetics. If you don’t understand the difference here, then you’re too ignorant to be lecturing anybody about the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/52 "2015-10-12T04:10:50Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > :dubious: > > Hmmm. Morgenstern is on to something. > > … Oh brother, you’re seeing the light. Typical pit threads are about as exciting as watching octogenarians fornicate, or the post-coital unconsciousness that follows their efforts. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/53 "2015-10-12T04:11:20Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, there is no evidence, and if you read the threads that CP has been involved in (you bigoted fuck) you would know that his “evidence” gets shot down routinely. He’s just very persistent in posting the same crap over and over. That is not my recollection. What I recall is that his evidence gets characterized as weak (which I agree with), But that is not the same as zero evidence. You may want to go back and read some of those threads. You are m mistaken here. Whether I am a racist or not. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/54 "2015-10-12T04:12:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That is not my recollection. What I recall is that his evidence gets characterized as weak (which I agree with), But that is not the same as zero evidence. You may want to go back and read some of those threads. You are m mistaken here. Whether I am a racist or not. No, I’m not mistaken. He posts ahistorical bullshit and bad genetics and then ignores all the refutations. He’s an idiot lecturing people about intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/55 "2015-10-12T04:17:39Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, I’m not mistaken. He posts ahistorical bullshit and bad genetics and then ignores all the refutations. > > He’s an idiot lecturing people about intelligence. I still think you’re mistaken. And why do you think he “ignores” the refutations offered? Why is he not simply unconvinced by the counter explanations? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/56 "2015-10-12T04:17:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Surely you are not of the mind that CP is making these claims with no more evidence than a racist in 1820. Right? Actually this is pretty much what I’m saying. The data he puts forward is uniformly not actual evidence for the assertion that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence due to genetics. It might be evidence for something, but not for that, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/57 "2015-10-12T04:19:47Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > No, what I said is the truth of it. We simply don’t know enough about intelligence and genetics to make any definitive statements about how intelligence may break down along socially constructed “racial” lines. And anyone trying to pretend otherwise is a racist asshole. Is the empirical evidence of IQ disparities among ethnic groups (notably the higher averages among Ashkenazi Jews) valid? If the genetic mechanism isn’t explained does that negate the underlying trend being observed? Does it make one a “racist” to say, based on one measure of intelligence, Ashkenazi Jews are intellectually superior to other ethnic groups? Are you uncomfortable with the notion that fighting ignorance might involve supposedly “racist” implications? Am I a racist just for asking these questions (JAQ’ing off, as they say)? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/58 "2015-10-12T04:24:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Actually this is pretty much what I’m saying. The data he puts forward is uniformly not actual evidence for the assertion that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence due to genetics. It might be evidence for something, but not for that, in my view. It is, in fact, evidence for his position. It’s just not _direct_ evidence identifying the gene. You’re just trying to not allow the discussion until the actual gene is identified and we see a higher prevalence of them among non-Black races. Surely you’re aware that science usually works the other way. You make a hypothesis based on observation, do research to understand things better, then, if you are right, you might actually find proof that shows that your hypothesis was correct. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/59 "2015-10-12T04:25:48Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Is the empirical evidence of IQ disparities among ethnic groups (notably the higher averages among Ashkenazi Jews) valid? > > If the genetic mechanism isn’t explained does that negate the underlying trend being observed? Does it make one a “racist” to say, based on one measure of intelligence, Ashkenazi Jews are intellectually superior to other ethnic groups? Hey, you racist dickhead. I know you were in the thread where we discussed the Ashkenazi and then you ran away from it after you were shown what an idiot you were. So don’t fucking try to bring it up here again like you have a new point. In thread after thread, you show yourself to be a complete idiot. Where do you get off lecturing people about intelligence? > [@](#): > > Are you uncomfortable with the notion that fighting ignorance might involve supposedly “racist” implications? Am I a racist just for asking these questions (JAQ’ing off, as they say)? You are a racist because you refuse to learn anything about intelligence development or genetics and keep spouting the same nonsense over and over. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/60 "2015-10-12T04:28:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I still think you’re mistaken. And why do you think he “ignores” the refutations offered? Why is he not simply unconvinced by the counter explanations? Oh, please. In addition to being a homobigot, you’re also clearly a racist. I’ve given my refutations in many of his threads. Go fucking read them and educate yourself. It’s clear you don’t know the first thing about genetics or how the human brain develops. You’re just a racist moron who wants to spout out about yet another topic you haven’t studied. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=4)