# Chief Pedant, come on down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363 "2015-10-11T22:09:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/161 "2015-10-12T21:37:38Z")
There you go again. Telling lies and being hate filled isn’t going to get you very far. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/162 "2015-10-12T21:41:32Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Oh good lard no. The last thing you want is to try and discuss science and such here. > > It will not go well. Hey, you know what dipshit? If you would go read any of the **Chief Pedant** threads, you would know that we’ve all discussed the IQ test and Ashkenazi Jew and sickle-cell anemia arguments multiple times, and we’ve provided explanation after explanation and cite after cite showing that these arguments are based on fundamental misunderstandings of history or genetics or intelligence or sociology or even economics. And then fuckwits come into this thread regurgitating the same tired arguments acting as if they’re bringing up a brand new point that nobody’s ever heard. Hell, people who have participated in those threads have shown up in this thread trying to pretend that their arguments haven’t already been shot down. No, I don’t have to do science in this thread, because I’ve already done it. But, thanks for showing to me very clearly that you are a racist nitwit. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/163 "2015-10-12T21:42:44Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > There you go again. Telling lies and being hate filled isn’t going to get you very far. The only person lying here and spewing hate is you. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/164 "2015-10-12T21:51:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No idea where any of this comes from. If you want to point out something that I’ve posted that you disagree with, I’d be happy to respond and answer your questions. > [@](#): > > I’ll repeat this again: for literally centuries, people have been claiming \<…\>. And for centuries, these people have been saying that they have good data and good reason to believe this. > > Everyone who made these claims thought they had good data and good reason. Why is it any different now? We can substitute any kind of belief in which we disagree with the common knowledge of yesteryear. What makes racism more true in this formulation than medicine or astronomy? And heck, can’t you spin this in reverse? Lots of egalitarians claim good data and good reason to assume an equal distribution of intelligence across all manner of groups. Given that people have been making specious claims about intelligence and group membership for as long as we’ve been dividing ourselves into groups, why should we assume that they are right? I mean, I’m really not invested in the genetic argument myself, because barring horrifyingly unethical experimentation methods, we can’t easily disentangle genetics and upbringing in a large population sample. Unless we’re allowed to create a bunch of kids of varying races in a lab, raise them in isolated, controlled conditions, and measure their comparative test scores, it’s going to be basically impossible to separate out the influence of culture from genes. But given that, does it really matter? Are the practical effects of “We’re not hiring you because there’s a less-likely-than-average chance you have a high IQ based on your skin color.” versus “We’re not hiring you because there’s a more-likely-than-average chance you’ve been raised in a culture that normalizes violence based on your skin color.”? And **FXMastermind** …do you really think there’s a point to this? Really? Is it that important for you to win against someone who thinks invective and “No u.” is the apogee of rhetoric? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/165 "2015-10-12T21:53:14Z")
I said _pluck_ the chicken, you fucking pervert! ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/166 "2015-10-12T21:59:49Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > And heck, can’t you spin this in reverse? Lots of egalitarians claim good data and good reason to assume an equal distribution of intelligence across all manner of groups. Given that people have been making specious claims about intelligence and group membership for as long as we’ve been dividing ourselves into groups, why should we assume that they are right? What utter nonsense. No fucking geneticist worth his salt is making the claim that all groups have equal distribution of intelligence. What they are saying is that they haven’t found clear genetic markers which correspond to social constructs of race, and it’s looking less and less likely that they will ever find any. And what they are also saying is that they don’t have a clear understanding of intelligence yet, and they don’t know how intelligence breaks down along genetic lines, let alone socially constructed racial lines. You don’t understand the science involved here, and yet you are lecturing people about it. > [@](#): > > And **FXMastermind** …do you really think there’s a point to this? Really? Is it that important for you to win against someone who thinks invective and “No u.” is the apogee of rhetoric? Riiiight, it’s ok when **FXMastermind** makes the “no u” argument, isn’t it? Funny how you all seem to defend each other. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/167 "2015-10-12T22:00:59Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Hey, you know what dipshit? If you would go read any of the **Chief Pedant** threads, you would know that we’ve all discussed the IQ test and Ashkenazi Jew and sickle-cell anemia arguments multiple times, and we’ve provided explanation after explanation and cite after cite showing that these arguments are based on fundamental misunderstandings of history or genetics or intelligence or sociology or even economics. > > And then fuckwits come into this thread regurgitating the same tired arguments acting as if they’re bringing up a brand new point that nobody’s ever heard. Hell, people who have participated in those threads have shown up in this thread trying to pretend that their arguments haven’t already been shot down. > > No, I don’t have to do science in this thread, because I’ve already done it. > > But, thanks for showing to me very clearly that you are a racist nitwit. I’m pretty sure that **FXMastermind** is on the hypomania phase of his bipolar swing, and will drown you out with manic post after manic post, climate change style. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/168 "2015-10-12T22:04:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I’m pretty sure that **FXMastermind** is on the hypomania phase of his bipolar swing, and will drown you out with manic post after manic post, climate change style. Well, crap. I have to go to work later. I’m not going to be able to keep this up all day. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/169 "2015-10-12T22:04:28Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Unless we’re allowed to create a bunch of kids of varying races in a lab, raise them in isolated, controlled conditions, and measure their comparative test scores, it’s going to be basically impossible to separate out the influence of culture from genes. We could take mixed-race kids, give them IQ tests, and see if there’s a correlation between share of African ancestry and IQ. A multivariate test could eliminate the culture issue if we had enough kids. Spoiler alert: it’s been done. No correlation. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/170 "2015-10-12T22:05:12Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > And **FXMastermind** …do you really think there’s a point to this? Really? There is no point, other than comedy relief. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/171 "2015-10-12T22:07:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll repeat this again: for literally centuries, people have been claiming that black people are inherently inferior in intelligence. And for centuries, these people have been saying that they have good data and good reason to believe this. Also, for centuries, people have been saying that Jews are inherently greedier and less trustworthy. And for centuries, these people have been saying that they have good data and good reason to believe this. > > Everyone who made these claims thought they had good data and good reason. Why is it any different now? Why are **CP** ’s claims, which according to him are far more than just a hypothesis, any different? If he was just saying “maybe genes might be part of the answer to this question”, that would be one thing… but he’s not saying that; he’s saying without reservation that black people on average have inherently inferior genes for intelligence. I don’t believe that blacks are genetically intellectually inferior or that Jews are genetically greedier. But your analogy is ridiculous. There’s a HUGE difference between those two claims. There is a LOT of evidence that blacks are intellectually inferior. Reams and reams of it. IQ tests, SAT scores, college graduation rates, etc. That evidence is not necessarily COMPELLING, it may be flawed, it may be balanced out by other evidence, there may be perfectly good reasons to discount or ignore or downplay it. But that evidence certainly exists. On the other hand, there is NOT a set of tests-for-how-greedy-you-are that literally every American youth has been taking multiple times in their life for generations, giving us a huge data set which contains prima facie reasonable evidence that Jews are inherently greedy. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/172 "2015-10-12T22:17:05Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > … I’m not going to be able to keep this up all day. If it’s longer than 4 hours, you better call the doctor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/173 "2015-10-12T22:18:31Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > We can substitute any kind of belief in which we disagree with the common knowledge of yesteryear. What makes racism more true in this formulation than medicine or astronomy? Huh? The “blacks are dumber” crowd are repeating the nonsense of the past (unless, I suppose, one believes that the slavery apologists of the past had a point). Modern medicine and astronomy are pretty categorically not repeating the nonsense of the past. > [@](#): > > And heck, can’t you spin this in reverse? Lots of egalitarians claim good data and good reason to assume an equal distribution of intelligence across all manner of groups. Given that people have been making specious claims about intelligence and group membership for as long as we’ve been dividing ourselves into groups, why should we assume that they are right? Who are these phantom egalitarians? I’m certainly not making such a claim. > [@](#): > > I mean, I’m really not invested in the genetic argument myself, because barring horrifyingly unethical experimentation methods, we can’t easily disentangle genetics and upbringing in a large population sample. Unless we’re allowed to create a bunch of kids of varying races in a lab, raise them in isolated, controlled conditions, and measure their comparative test scores, it’s going to be basically impossible to separate out the influence of culture from genes. This is quite a coincidence, since I’ve made pretty much the exact same point multiple times. Although, like **Evil Economist** points out, we have done studies before of self-identified black people to see if there was any correlation between lower test scores and greater amounts of African ancestry (measured by DNA blood group loci), and there was no such correlation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/174 "2015-10-12T22:27:29Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I don’t believe that blacks are genetically intellectually inferior or that Jews are genetically greedier. But your analogy is ridiculous. There’s a HUGE difference between those two claims. > > There is a LOT of evidence that blacks are intellectually inferior. Reams and reams of it. IQ tests, SAT scores, college graduation rates, etc. That evidence is not necessarily COMPELLING, it may be flawed, it may be balanced out by other evidence, there may be perfectly good reasons to discount or ignore or downplay it. But that evidence certainly exists. > > On the other hand, there is NOT a set of tests-for-how-greedy-you-are that literally every American youth has been taking multiple times in their life for generations, giving us a huge data set which contains prima facie reasonable evidence that Jews are inherently greedy. You missed a word I used – “inherently”, used to mean “permanently or unchangeably”. There’s not a lot of evidence (or any evidence, I think) nowadays that black people are inherently intellectually inferior, whether due to genetics or other factors. There wasn’t in the past, either. I hold that people who assert that black people are inherently intellectually inferior do so based on some sort of racial bias or animus rather than based on any actual reasonable evidence, since there’s not any. I don’t see it as different than those who believe Jews are inherently greedier. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/175 "2015-10-12T22:37:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you want to argue, “b-b-but there are no races!!”, you’re really just avoiding the discussion in those threads. Really. There are no races. Said. That’s not PC crap. That’s the concept of races that’s cultural crap. It makes no sense from any point of view. You call someone like Obama “black” which makes no sense given his ancestry. Just looking at people going up the Nile river shows there’s no such distinction between “races”. It’s notorious that’s there’s more genetic differences within sub-saharian Africa itself than between any of your fucking “races”. Traditional “races” are based on the most superficial traits, skin colour or eye shape, not on anything that would ressemble a scientific approach of population genetics. “Races” are just a crappy cultural heritage handed down to us by forefathers who knew nothing about anything, and just decided that people with a darker skin had to be very different from people with a clearer skin. You could as well discuss races on the basis of eye colour or shape of the foot, it would make exactly as much sense. Stop thinking that people who say there are no races are obtuses PC idiots who pretend not to see the obvious. You’re the ones blinded by an idiotic distinction based on skin tone you’ve been accustomed to from childhood to consider as relevant and significant when it’s nothing of the sort, and trying to forcefully make data fit on each side of your imaginary lines in the sand. We’re not avoiding any discussion. You’re just keep holding on this antiquated and stupid notion of race rather than actually looking at reality, including scientific evidence, despite knowing full well this evidence. You keep clinging on “this guy is rather pale and this other one is rather dark, and surely that has to be important because mom thought it was because grandad thought it was because great grandad…”. You’re probably not going to believe me, your loss, but you’re the one who’s so culturally conditioned that you’re blind to the obvious. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/176 "2015-10-12T22:38:35Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I don’t believe that blacks are genetically intellectually inferior or that Jews are genetically greedier. But your analogy is ridiculous. There’s a HUGE difference between those two claims. > > There is a LOT of evidence that blacks are intellectually inferior. Reams and reams of it. IQ tests, SAT scores, college graduation rates, etc. That evidence is not necessarily COMPELLING, it may be flawed, it may be balanced out by other evidence, there may be perfectly good reasons to discount or ignore or downplay it. But that evidence certainly exists. > > On the other hand, there is NOT a set of tests-for-how-greedy-you-are that literally every American youth has been taking multiple times in their life for generations, giving us a huge data set which contains prima facie reasonable evidence that Jews are inherently greedy. THANK YOU! Sanity may prevail after all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/177 "2015-10-12T22:44:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > THANK YOU! Sanity may prevail after all. How come you still seem to be ignoring the guy (me) who makes a sincere attempt at answering your questions? Which of my points are you still disagreeing with? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/178 "2015-10-12T22:51:08Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > There are no races. Said. > That’s not PC crap. That’s the concept of races that’s cultural crap. It makes no sense from any point of view. You call someone like Obama “black” which makes no sense given his ancestry. Just looking at people going up the Nile river shows there’s no such distinction between “races”. It’s notorious that’s there’s more genetic differences within sub-saharian Africa itself than between any of your fucking “races”. Traditional “races” are based on the most superficial traits, skin colour or eye shape, not on anything that would ressemble a scientific approach of population genetics. > > “Races” are just a crappy cultural heritage handed down to us by forefathers who knew nothing about anything, and just decided that people with a darker skin had to be very different from people with a clearer skin. You could as well discuss races on the basis of eye colour or shape of the foot, it would make exactly as much sense. > > Stop thinking that people who say there are no races are obtuses PC idiots who pretend not to see the obvious. You’re the ones blinded by an idiotic distinction based on skin tone you’ve been accustomed to from childhood to consider as relevant and significant when it’s nothing of the sort, and trying to forcefully make data fit on each side of your imaginary lines in the sand. > > We’re not avoiding any discussion. You’re just keep holding on this antiquated and stupid notion of race rather than actually looking at reality, including scientific evidence, despite knowing full well this evidence. You keep clinging on “this guy is rather pale and this other one is rather dark, and surely that has to be important because mom thought it was because grandad thought it was because great grandad…”. > > You’re probably not going to believe me, your loss, but you’re the one who’s so culturally conditioned that you’re blind to the obvious. :rolleyes: Try reading with better comprehension: > [@](#): > > If you want to argue, “b-b-but there are no races!!”, you’re really just avoiding the discussion in those threads. Really. The point is that for the _purposes of those discussions_, one has to either assume that races exist, or that SIRE groups have at least some validity. If not, there’s really no discussion to be had. It’s akin to talking about the the nature of God to a devout atheist who simply doesn’t entertain the possibility of his existence. Next topic for you: are unicorns better pets than mermaids? I’m telling you it’s mermaids!. And if you don’t believe me, well, your loss. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/179 "2015-10-12T22:54:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How come you still seem to be ignoring the guy (me) who makes a sincere attempt at answering your questions? Which of my points are you still disagreeing with? Huh? I’ve responded to you. Is there something I missed? I’m posting in a few threads here while fielding a bunch of work emails. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363/180 "2015-10-12T22:57:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? I’ve responded to you. Is there something I missed? I’m posting in a few threads here while fielding a bunch of work emails. No big deal, I just noticed while you were trading invective with various posters that you missed (or chose not to address) my post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18764803&postcount=62), and then praised another post critical of mine that I responded to, after my response, without addressing my response. Maybe you missed it – I’d be happy to engage further if you have further thoughts on any points I’m making. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/chief-pedant-come-on-down/734363.md?page=10)